TIFF 2024 bonus episode 3: haunted houses

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a mini-

[00:00:07] It's a mini-

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Oubliette Mini-Suits

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to a special bonus episode of Movie Oubliette.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the third of our TIFF coverage episodes, and yet again I am joined by...

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, it's Joe Websitt again.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but this time we are no longer in the same hotel room.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Sadly, this is after I have returned to the UK.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So the festival is all over, but we still have some more movies to talk about.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Indeed, we do, yes.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think we're going to talk about some haunted houses this time.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Ghosts Galore.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess the first one to talk about is one which tested the mode of the genre by experimenting with first-person ghost POV,

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: which is Steven Soderbergh's presence.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is an interesting one.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned the kind of conceit, which is that this is a film from the ghost's point of view.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that that is its strongest selling feature as well as something of a novelty.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It also has that sort of 1917 feel to it in the sense that as a result it is composed of very, very long takes,

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: which was something in particular that the cast who were assembled for the Q&A at the screening that I went to,

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: because I went to a public screening, they were talking about that they had to get used to very quickly.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And the members of the cast who had a theater background were much more comfortable with these extended takes,

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: whereas some of those who didn't have theater experience were learning fast.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a great cast as well.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's Lucy Lu as the mom of the family moving into this new home that has a ghost in it.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You've got Chris Sullivan, who is an actor I wasn't familiar with actually.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: He's one of those, I think, character actors because he looked familiar but I could not place him.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Very good as the dad.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm probably going to get all of these wrong.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got Kaleena or Kalena.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I think Kaleena Liang.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: As Chloe, who is the daughter of the family and Eddie Mayday as Tyler, who is the son.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And West Mulholland as the best friend, Ryan.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a film that I think is scheduled to come out in North America in January.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So I anticipate it will be relatively easy for people to see, but I'm wary of giving too many details.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But it basically concerns, yeah, as you said, this family who moves into a new house and the daughter is the one who kind of needs to be Captain Ion

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: because she is grieving the loss of a friend who recently died.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And the brother is being a bit of a dick to her.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not incredibly supportive.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He is definitely mama's boy.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So Lucy Lu is all over protecting this boy.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He's being set up for some kind of sports scholarship.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And the daughter is the one who kind of gets left behind.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: She has a better relationship with the father.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of tension within the family unit up to and including the fact that Rebecca, that's the Lucy Lu character, is involved in some kind of, I think, embezzling scheme at her law work.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's definitely involved in something shady at work because you hear the husband trying to get legal advice and posing it as, hey, a friend of mine is in this situation.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure whoever he's talking to does not buy that at all.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, you've got the typical situation of a family that is already under some strain moving into a new home and then encountering something supernatural.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But this one's very much a slow burn, I would say.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Like folks going into this expecting some kind of poltergeist or insidious or conjuring film are not going to find what they're looking for.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And it also doesn't feel as though it's going for documentary realism with its long takes and first person camera.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It is very much an old fashioned ghost story, I would say.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And particularly for me that was driven home by the mood set by Zach Ryan's score, which is very florid, very romantic and not what I was expecting at all, which was something that was more akin to sound design or nothing at all.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll confess.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So if we're being candid, this was a film that was very much not for me.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was interested in it.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to see what Soderbergh would do with this novelty, with this conceit.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found the film a little boring even though it is relatively short.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I will say the score is one of the things that kind of perplexed me because not only does it sometimes feel at odds with what we're trying to achieve, I think it works best at the end when everything is all revealed.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Because yes, there is a bit of a mystery to this.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But I just found like it wasn't being used properly, especially early on.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there were moments where I thought, OK, there's no score here, which means maybe we're only doing diagetic sound.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And then all of a sudden we would have this very florid romantic kind of score come in and it took me out because it didn't seem to make sense when we were and weren't using it.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I completely agree with that.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It seemed very intrusive when it did arrive because it seemed too big.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: For the tone of the film.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It is an interesting mystery.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's very well plotted.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: The screenwriter is superstar screenwriter David Kep.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Stephen Soderbergh at the Q&A was saying that he gave him the sort of bare bones of the story, the outline of what the story should be.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And then David Kep went away and then came back with this script that he was absolutely thrilled with.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I was surprised by some of the twists, although I did feel stupid for being surprised because I thought actually there is really nothing else that could have happened with the resources we had in terms of events and characters.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: There was only really one direction to go in.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to elaborate on that because as I said, if people are interested in checking out the film, I think it's one of those.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'd rather not know too, too much.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But suffice to say it's a small film, right?

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So the answers are kind of all there.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I will say I figured it out maybe halfway through if only because there's a very clunky line of dialogue that sort of gives it away.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was obviously not paying attention because I missed it.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I found it formally interesting.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But I didn't find it engaging.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And in particular, I was not sucked into caring about the characters, mainly because the camera, yes, is a floating presence.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's all operated by Stephen Soderbergh himself.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: He's clearly going for lots of different compositions with it.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But crucially, you are lacking in close-ups.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And as a result, I suddenly realized how important the mid-shoddle, the close-up is to being emotionally engaged with your performers because the fisheye distortion and the distance from the characters, they were just reduced to shapes.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So actually their costuming and like West Mulholland's particularly large hair became very, very important for you to identify who everybody was from a distance because they were just reduced to shapes.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And then on top of that, I would argue that Cope's screenplay is very much from leaning towards certain characters.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think we're meant to like Lucy Liu's Rebecca very much.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Like she's very standoffish.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: She's not very supportive.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And the same with Tyler.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: He just seems like a bit of an entitled brat.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're spending a lot of time with very few characters, sometimes hard to identify because we don't have those close-ups and then fully half at this cast are kind of assholes.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So not the most engaging film, not frightening in the slightest.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh no.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's more of an old fashioned ghost story mystery.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you want something gentle and you want to see a completely different approach to filming something like that.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It could be your thing.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I was not terribly taken with it.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I enjoyed watching it once to be able to say that I have seen it and have a conversation like this with you.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But I could not imagine watching this the second time.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So moving on to something that I think you saw towards the middle of the festival and I saw right at the very end of the festival.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Hold your breath.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a film that stars Sarah Paulson, which is the reason why I was interested in it.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Depending on when this episode drops, it may already be available.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It's coming out in early October here in North America on Hulu.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is directed by Kerry Krause and William Joins and it was written by Kerry Krause.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I gathered that they have worked on a short before but this is her feature directorial debut.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I call Frontier Supernatural Horror Conrad.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Although when you're given the bare bones of the plot, which is mother with a shotgun in a remote location trying to protect her children while the father is absent.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And with the children alluding to the fact that, oh, we hope that mum manages to hold it together because there was that time when she did something bad when she was not sleeping very well and not coping very well.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're all alluding to it darkly but not actually defining what it was that she did.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: You start thinking of Nicole Kidman, don't you really?

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a very familiar premise and much like I said, oh in presence there's that one very sort of clunky line that gives the whole thing away if you're listening for it.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I would argue Hold Your Breath does this countless times.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if this film thinks that it's breaking new ground or maybe just doing it in a newer different way.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is a very familiar story and unfortunately that absolutely sinks it for me.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Like technically I think that this movie is incredibly well done in nearly every capacity except its screenplay and it is so obvious and clunky that it just dooms the whole project.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like an hour and 35 minutes and I was ready to peace out after about 10.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, okay.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I got a little bit annoyed with it because in an attempt to ratchet up the tension it had this habit of doing nasty editing tricks like cutting suddenly to a new scene or a dream sequence or a memory with a violent soundtrack cut.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So you would suddenly go to a screaming sandstorm because this is set in the 1930s in the Oklahoma Panhandle.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The evocation of the period and the setting I think is faultless.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, oh yeah, the sense of the pervasive battle against the encroaching dust I think is great.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: The images of a shadow we figure that they're afraid of because they've told themselves a fairy story called the gray man.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: They're worried that there may be this outside force that is coming to get them.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's very effectively achieved but the film itself does keep doing this jump scare cut with cattle prod sound changes to try and keep you on the edge of your seat and it just kept pissing me off.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's pissing you off because we already know exactly what's happening as well.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a very formulaic storytelling in that technical regard.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: The reason I said it's well done is in part because it's using very established approaches.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is something we've seen before.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's worked well in other titles but here you're just like, you're trying to misdirect me but it's so badly done because we know what's going to happen.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: There is no mystery about who or what the gray man is or if this is even real because as you said, we've laid out all these very obvious breadcrumbs and we keep getting these repeated visual motifs of mom taking her sleeping pills and then she wakes up suddenly and there's a recurring nightmare

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're just like, yes, movie, we get it.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I complained about it on another movie but we had a fucking cat scare in this movie too.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh boy, yeah.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just so disappointing Conrad because I actually really like all of the performances in this film.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I really truly do believe that Sarah Paulson is doing her absolute best to make Margaret an interesting character even though this woman is a hot mess from minute one.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is falling into one of my least favorite new trends and horror from about the last five to seven years which is the issue imagining things or is it really supernatural.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And the answer is like, well, you can figure it out pretty quickly.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But we also have this threatening preacher figure who shows up in the barn who was played by Ebon Moss Bachrach and he's suitably like, is he a con artist?

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Is he real? Maybe he is going to help.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the performance from Margaret's oldest daughter Rose who was played by Amaya Miller, she's also really good.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm going to quibble with the technical elements of the makeup and hair because everybody is a magazine beautiful despite the fact that as you said, yes, we're fighting against the dust and the elements at all points.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we are.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I also really appreciated the performance of Alona Jane Robbins who I think this is her first movie.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And she's a deaf actor playing the youngest surviving daughter because of course there is hovering in the background, the spectra of the youngest daughter who has perished as a result of illness, I believe.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But the interesting thing about that that I was sort of wrestling with afterwards was I don't think her deafness played into the plot at all.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I was trying to figure out if it was that we liked this actor and therefore we wanted to find a way to excuse the fact that they would not be speaking or that we would sometimes be signing and so on.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: There again is a bit of a novelty to having a disabled actor playing a disabled character.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's still not something that we do right all the time, so I appreciated that.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, you kind of keep waiting for it to factor in and it doesn't.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know maybe that's a good thing in terms of representation but if you're looking for it, it does seem a little odd.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It does, yeah.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's either on the one hand really progressive casting in that a disabled character doesn't need to be there just so that disability is either an advantage or disadvantage in some set piece.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: A la a quiet place where it's integral to the whole themes and the plot.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Or is it a loose end that was just a cliche, a trope that was not even tied up in the end?

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the fact is that we still don't see enough disabled representation so it feels like something special and unique.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So we call attention to it because we're not used to seeing it and hopefully that will go away if we actually just cast more disabled actors.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very true.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought she was great.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought all of the women were great.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I was interested to read that Claire Foy was originally cast as the mother.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I could see that as well.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It does have that sort of regal matriarch role to it, right?

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's actually a pretty solid role.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just that the story being told around that character isn't particularly interesting because it is so obvious.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is a shame because Carrie apparently wrote many, many episodes of Westworld, which I always thought was a very well written show.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So yes, I'm surprised that this didn't turn out particularly well.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if you're going into this looking for mystery, you are not going to find it.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I was actually perplexed by the fact that she is associated with Westworld because I'm totally in agreement with you.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I found that that was in some ways almost over plotted.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I can't help but wonder maybe she pulled back for this in order to make it simpler for people.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But if so, we've gone too far the other way.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We have.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'll just mention one example that I noted down during the screening.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I particularly found the neighbor who also has children who goes completely off the rails and is an obvious harbinger of doom,

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: like a projection of where Sarah Paulson's character Margaret might end up with heavy handed.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to a scene where she stands in front of her and screams, you'll be just like me.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it gets incredibly literal and obvious.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just on the nose.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So a little bit disappointed with that one.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, unfortunately.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely not my favorite.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So turning to our third film yet another haunted house.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: This one is quite a unique opportunity as it turns out.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is the found footage film.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't get any better than this.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It is a product of Rachel Kempf and Nick Toti who are partners and co-directors,

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: co-writers along with a third who is only identified as Christian in the film.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: They are friends who have been friends since childhood, I think.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Christian is gay, the gay friend.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a cozy threesome.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They've been making videos and films together for a very, very long time.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: They rented duplex to shoot a film that Rachel has written.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, the duplex is haunted in some way or there is something definitely supernatural and sinister happening in there.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we get the rest of the film as the documentation of that.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like a found footage documentary production of their experience in this place.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And this film is one that the filmmakers have decided never to distribute beyond screenings that the filmmaker will attend in person.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We were very lucky to get an opportunity to see it as it turns out.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is so unique.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was alerted to this by a friend of mine who was able to see the film in Chicago.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can go on the website and you can request a screening of this film.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And if they can attend, usually I think they go to film festivals because that's easier to get a little bit of a stipend or something.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But initially, you and I had a conversation about this because as a business model, this makes no sense, right?

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a movie that you can only see when they are there, which means it's virtually guaranteed that almost everyone listening to this right now will never be able to see this movie.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they've confirmed they will never release it on streaming.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And we speculated about why this is and in the Q&A that I heard because you and I were in different screenings for this,

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: they explained that in part it's a response to things like what happened to the cast of The Blair Witch where people can flake the characters in the film with the real people

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: because they're using their actual names and then their likeness or their personalities become conflated to the point where a business then owns your true identity.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Because of course, these filmmakers, they use their real names in the film. They use their real house in the film.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So like in some ways, this is a bit of cinema verite, but they are unwilling to, for lack of a better term, sell themselves out and have their likeness out there for any old company to have.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So they have made this decision that they will control the distribution and the exhibition of this film.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So again, it's a bit of a novelty.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. So that's fascinating. So I don't know what the ethics are in terms of spoilers for this given that it's a film that's going to be very difficult to see.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, if you don't want any, then skip the rest of this discussion.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So the screening you went to was Rachel there.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: She was indeed.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But we teased it as my wife has gone missing. Does anyone know where my wife is?

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Because of course, in the film, the character disappears and about the second act and we spend the rest of the film looking for her.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. Okay. So the screening I went to, which was a public screening, Nick was the only one there.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, interesting. Yes, I got Rachel and Christian.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So they both showed up, but only after we started a kind of seance to summon them and then they appeared at the back of the theater in costume.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. Okay. So they are obviously having fun with this.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: There is a performance art element of this because it showed up at the beginning of the screening to introduce the movie with a hoodie that was zipped up and he looked like a broken man.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. And talked about how proud he was of this movie, even though it documents the worst thing that's ever happened to him.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he left the screening and said he couldn't watch it, but he would be back for a Q&A at the end.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And then when he reappeared at the end for the Q&A, he had unzipped the hoodie and he's wearing a T-shirt that has a missing poster for his wife.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And he handed out missing flyers, which I took one. So I found it in my luggage this morning.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing. Okay, so wait. So Rachel and Christian never joined the Q&A because yeah, we went through this whole rigamarole where a bunch of people left because they were uncomfortable because we were all made to class pans and think about the future and try to sort of summon or create a safe environment.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it went on for at least two or three minutes, enough time to let people out of the theater. And then Christian and Rachel stood up at the very back and had to walk down the huge flight of stairs in this stadium-style auditorium.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. It sounds like they're trying various different things in each one to see what plays. There's a bit of playful experimentation here. So yeah, so we just had Nick.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So presumably Rachel and Christian were off like sightseeing in Toronto or having their nails done or something.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I've done this several times. We're good. We're good.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it was just Nick looking pale and traumatized taking the Q&A and the Q&A was playful.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So there were people in the audience asking if Rachel was with the Blair Witch and he was saying that, you know, looking shocked and saying that he didn't think that was a very respectful question.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It was very well done, I thought on their part. So there's a bit of a performance aspect to it as well. It's interesting.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I mean, that's in keeping with the nature of the film itself because I mean, the reason that I was told to watch this in part was because yes, it's so difficult to actually catch a screening, right?

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not there at the right time on the right date, you will miss this. But then the other piece is that it is just a genuinely good harrowing found footage film.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's a couple of really dandy sequences in this movie. And for me, you know, out of the films we're talking about today, this is by far the most successful and the best of the three.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I would absolutely agree with that. For me, it captured some of the spirit of the first major breaks were in terms of found footage in recent memory of course Blair Witch, which I was genuinely obsessed with spellbound by

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: when I went to see it in a dark and theater alone, which was not wise. I was terrified. And this actually, I mean, it didn't have the same impact on me.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that moment is gone. But still, I did admire it. I did find it disturbing. It had a lot of sequences that sort of nodded to Blair Witch.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there was a lot of yes, running around trying to find people who had apparently vanished and going into basements. And you're waiting for something to happen there. But it doesn't.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And then something else happens. Yes. Afterwards. And I thought, oh, that's actually quite a good subversion of my expectations there. Well done. Yeah.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'm wondering, can you speak to the sound design in this movie? Because I think we both had some interesting oral experiences in the theater because my sound was cranked up to, I want to say a 15.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think they had, well, either I've suffered hearing loss in my ears and not as sensitive as yours or they had attenuated it for my screening because it was, I would say on the verge of painful.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. But not actually painful. Once the sound stopped, there was a sense of your ears sort of repressurizing afterwards for a second. So it was quite an experience.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I would sort of compare it to the sequences in Star Trek, The Motion Picture, where the VEGIA probe is going through the bridge and ILEA is digitized or whatever happens to ILEA in that movie.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It has these sequences of sound design where there is just this sense of immense pressure and you can barely hear people speaking over it. And it's as though you're in a really different terrifying atmosphere, an environment that is pressuring your ears.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's very intense. It's for quite a long period of time as well. It feels like, and it's to highlight a really terrifying moment. I think it's very effective.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Verging on painful in the same way that say like a Christopher Nolan movie is verging on painful with its sound mix sometimes.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was just such an interesting strategic choice. I found it painful in my screening to the point where I actually had to plug my ears because it was hurting and I needed it to stop. But it did punctuate that moment so appropriately.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's got a fantastic visual reveal that accompanies it. And I found that moment incredibly, incredibly effective. And then there's one other moment that is kind of amazing and so uncomfortable because I guess one of the things that I found challenging about the film is that I didn't like this couple.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I actually found them quite grating and a little bit annoying. And unfortunately enough, it seems built in part on their real life relationship like they're not really playing characters, they're kind of playing themselves and they're a little bit annoying.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel as though Nick was the primary filmmaker and Rachel was sort of his interviewee and his subject in the movie.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: He is very rarely in front of the camera. So kind of like Heather Donahue was in Blair Witch. Rachel's giddy glee at genuine evidence of something otherworldly and potentially dangerous happening in this house seems a little irresponsible and at some points.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. Like sometimes the character is just so enthusiastic and like, you know, they're always wearing horror movie t-shirts. So you know that they identify themselves as fans and there's something kind of empowering and exciting about that.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people who understand the kinds of references that they're building into the film. And that's nice, right? Like it almost feels like a kind of Easter egg. But yeah, at times a little bit grating, a little bit irresponsible, you know, like, hey, maybe don't do a sales on a creepy attic when you're finding candy.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the handles that won't go out or that like themselves. The film is kind of filled with those moments. But then I think the most successful moment isn't even one that is scary, but it does demonstrate how dangerous a territory they're playing in.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Because one of the recurring visuals in this movie is that people gather outside of this house that they have bought for no reason and they seem to be in trance by it to the point where you can snap at them, you can wave a hand in front of them, you can yell at them and these people don't react.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And as the film progresses, there's more and more and more of them. So it's very, you know, it's a scary image. And they discover that they often seem to leave at a particular time. So in one moment of the film, Nick and Rachel decide, well, we're going to follow someone and we're going to make them feel how we feel when we're living in this house and they just won't stop staring or hanging out on our lawn every night.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So they follow a woman or I want to say maybe 10 minutes. I think it's actually close to five, but it feels interminable and it's so uncomfortable because they're just peppering this woman and she doesn't seem to understand what they're even doing.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Like she doesn't remember that she was standing outside of this house for hours at a time. So they're basically a costing a woman and following her home at 4am on this abandoned streets of this Missouri town. They are the aggressors and it's such an uncomfortable sequence.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it really does feel as though the film has untethered itself from any of the tropes of a haunted house movie that you would expect. So I did not know where it was going to go and it made me very, very uncomfortable.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to the point I was like, is someone going to get murdered here? Like are they actually going to physically assault this woman? Like where the police? It's a great moment but it is very, very unusual. Yeah, like it just feels very rarefied for found footage and horror to move its characters into this nasty kind of space.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And they talked about it in the Q&A. They said that they only filmed it twice but it basically is a kind of string of unbroken, like it's a long take that they hack up in the edit to make it a little bit easier to watch.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But this woman is screaming and crying and they filmed it at 2am and they said they never got a noise complaint and no one ever came to check on them. Not even the second night when they did it again.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Really? Yeah. That's even more disturbing. Right? Yeah, that's not good. No. No. Okay. Well, I enjoyed it a lot. I did not know where it was going to go. It had some very interesting elements.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It harkened back to a lot of things. I recognized a few references like particularly people gathering outside put me in mind of John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness for example.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Although in that case I believe it's unhoused people who are gathering outside including Alice Cooper. Right, of course.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: There was even a tip of the hat to David Lowry's A Ghost story at one point in the movie. Okay, yeah. Because a character does dress up as a ghost and then stand in the corner of a room just to cheat with eye holes.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's funny because we're in on that joke so we're waiting for this character to scare the others. Yeah, which is nice and then when you play it back you suddenly notice that there is something else in that scene that you possibly didn't notice the first time.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So ironically I think the film would actually be one that would benefit from multiple viewings. I agree. But that seems so unlikely.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know at our screening they mention oh we're playing this again in a couple of days and you should come out and see if you can spot additional things. And I just thought this model I love it and I also simultaneously hate it.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a tricky one. It's probably one of the best found footage films I've seen in years.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And one that no one can see.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You probably can't see it dear Lister. I'm so sorry but if you do get an opportunity to request it or if it is showing up in a film festival near you, I would definitely suggest you check it out if this is one of your genres.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. Unabashedly. It's a strong recommend.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So that ends our summary of haunted house movies on a high thankfully because the other two entries not so great unfortunately.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But don't worry you can see those ones very easily.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You can. Yeah, they all seem to be being trotted out on streaming or dumped in January which in itself says a lot.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought I'd just round up because this is going to be our last Tiff bonus episode just to ask you Joe if there's anything just even outside of the genres that you'd just like to flag as being something you enjoyed at Tiff this year?

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Well it was interesting because there were a couple of highly sexualized films that people wanted to make a big deal out of.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So we got to see Nicole Kidman having a salacious affair with an underling in Baby Girl and then we got to see Daniel Craig having unabashed sex with men in queer.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I actually found the sex and the nudity in both of those films not pedestrian but I felt like people had blown it up to a greater degree than I would have said.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But I did enjoy both of those films and I was kind of happy to see a return to quote unquote adult cinema at the festival.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, interesting isn't it? So Baby Girl is like a throwback to an erotic thriller but then not so much.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's the thing it's erotic and there's no thriller element to it.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And I really dislike the fact that people are trying to shoehorn it into that category.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people need to go back and revisit what constitutes an erotic thriller.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is me coming from someone who doesn't like to gatekeep.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean if anything the film was interesting in that it was more nuanced and more of a serious drama than an exploitational 90s erotic thriller with melting wax.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Another one I wanted to mention briefly was The Life of Chuck which I believe won an award.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it won the People's Choice Award which ironically enough is usually a hallmark of films that will go on to be nominated and even win Academy Awards.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Which surprised me because I thought by far the most likely to win awards out of them in terms of buzzy titles is probably the substance.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Well that did win the Midnight Madness Award so that's the other kind of big bell weather that you can get.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I definitely do think we will see that one in the conversation.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious about The Life of Chuck. I didn't catch it but I know you did.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you feel that all of the attention was warranted?

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I did not. No.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It was pleasant enough so it's Mike Flanagan doing a Stephen King adaptation and famously Stephen was in attendance and I did spot him in the wild.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: He was seated next to Mark Hamill in the Premiers screening because it's a great cast, the movie.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean the grandfather of the central character who raises him after his parents pass is Mark Hamill.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_00]: The grandmother is Mia Sara who I feel as though I haven't seen for a very long time.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Heather Langenkamp has a fabulous scene in it as the town gossip and she is hilarious.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It's based on a not so much a short story, it's more of a novella.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the longer pieces that appears in one of King's short story compilations.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's told in three acts that are in reverse order so you are sort of slowly unspooling the story backwards which is an interesting approach.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It does feel as though it is slavishly following and revering the source text too much because they are unable to let go of the narratorial voice of Stephen King.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So there is a voiceover running through the whole movie.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes they get a benefit out of that in terms of cinematic form because you end up with what's happening on the screen,

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: even interacting with the narrator in a slightly satirical and entertaining way which is fun.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But ultimately it is the story of a man who has a terminal illness

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and you are unspooling his life backwards to see moments from his childhood

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and from his relationship with his grandparents and magical moments of joy with other people and so on.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's sort of going for a magical, realist feel good story in much the same way as the Green Marlore, the Shawshank Redemption, although there isn't prison in this one.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I would kind of liken it to Hearts in Atlantis.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is a film I love, but it is not a massively successful Stephen King adaptation and certainly not one that many people remember particularly well.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt this one was kind of like that.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's one that people will probably forget, but maybe I'm completely wrong and it's a masterpiece.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a feeling that people will turn out for this one if only because Flanagan is such a devotee of King and people like to see them sort of work on things together.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I'll be curious because I do think that there's going to be a few folks who are not going to realize that it's not genre so they might go in under the wrong assumptions but feel good movies.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they're really easy to get wrong because they can be so sacriant and just kind of, oh well, they're uplifting in the end.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that this one gets a lot of mileage out of, I think it's a seven minute song and dance number.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's sort of the linchpin of the story.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It is a moment when the central character Charles Kranz who's played by Tom Hiddleston has a spontaneous moment of dancing with a complete stranger in front of a lady who is busking and playing the drums.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And the three of them just have this artistic moment together and a whole crowd of people gather to watch.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The theme, the thematic premise of the movie is that although various characters in the story in this character's life have had tragic ends or had tragic circumstances that would lead you to question what even is the point of this existence that we have.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're asking why did God create the world?

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It is for moments like this.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's this moment of just pure spontaneous joy that happens in the middle of the street on a random day for no discernible reason.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is beautiful and they do pull it off.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very faithful adaptation.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's nice to see Mike Flanagan doing something that isn't horrific for a change.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure he enjoyed it as a break before he plunges into trying to revive the exorcist franchise, which I'm sure he is somewhat treacherous.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Although if anybody can do it, he can.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I mean at the end of it, as I say, it's got an amazing cast.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Tom Hiddleston, Tua Taledje for Karen Gillan, Jacob Tremblay.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't complain about this cast.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, Flanagan has never struggled to put together a great cast, but it just kind of sounds like another one of these titles where you enjoyed it, but you also don't plan to revisit it or maybe think about it too often.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's not going to haunt me.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not one of the movies that has stayed with me since I left Tiff.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: There are various titles that have.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_00]: The Substance Dead Talon Society went up the hill even stayed with me afterwards, but this did not.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it feels very much like the sort of either the sort of the TV specials that they used to do out of Stephen King in the 90s or something that they will just dump on Netflix and people will watch it and then they will forget about it afterwards.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But I could be wrong.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It might sweep the Oscars and I completely missed the point.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I do not.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01]: My gosh, stay tuned listeners will find out whether Conrad is on the outs.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Quite possibly would not surprise me.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's it for our special Tiff coverage episodes.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you've enjoyed them and enjoyed listening to our Tiff journey.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again, Joe, for accompanying me and showing me the ropes while I was in Toronto.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Much appreciated.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_00]: No, my pleasure.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Bye for now.