The Shadow (with Oliver Harper)

[00:00:00] Welcome to Movie Oubliette, the film review podcast for movies that most people have mercifully forgotten.

[00:00:10] I'm Dan and I'm Conrad and in each episode we drag a forsaken film out of the Oubliette.

[00:00:17] Discuss it and judge it to decide whether it should be set free

[00:00:22] or whether it should be thrown back and consigned to oblivion forever.

[00:00:30] Movie Oubliette, movie review the films others tend to forget.

[00:00:36] Come with us and let's learn the movie Oubliette.

[00:00:41] Who knows what cinematic evil lurks in the hearts of men?

[00:00:45] The Movie Oubliette knows.

[00:00:47] Welcome to episode 148 of the Equator Straddling Podcast for Forgotten Fantastical Films with me, Conrad.

[00:00:56] Rediscovering my love of Command and Conquer in Cambridge, UK.

[00:01:01] That takes me back.

[00:01:02] And me, Dan, refreshed and returned from camping in Melbourne, Australia.

[00:01:07] We focus on Forgotten Fantasy, Sci-Fi and Horror Films because we love travelling to New York in a sarcophagus, telepathic socialites and knives with a personality.

[00:01:19] Hello, Dan.

[00:01:20] Hello, Conrad. Yes, yes. Command and Conquer. Wow.

[00:01:24] I was never good at that game, but I had many friends that played it.

[00:01:29] Yeah, it's my type of game, sort of slow burn real time strategy.

[00:01:34] Yeah.

[00:01:35] Defend yourself, steal all the resources, build up an army of tanks and then blast the hell out of people.

[00:01:40] Wow.

[00:01:41] Yeah, I've discovered a way to get it to run on Windows 11.

[00:01:46] Oh, wow.

[00:01:47] And now I am playing my old game that I loved from 2003, Command and Conquer Generals.

[00:01:54] Wow. Yeah.

[00:01:56] Yeah.

[00:01:57] Wow, so the original version as well?

[00:01:59] It's the original version of the game. You can still download it from Steam. Is that what it's called Steam?

[00:02:04] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:02:05] And you can get it to run on Windows 11 with this special patch that fans have put together to sort it out.

[00:02:12] Okay.

[00:02:13] And it plays like a dream.

[00:02:14] Oh, wow. That's amazing.

[00:02:17] Yeah, I'm too old to learn new games, Dan. I'm just going to play the old ones.

[00:02:22] Yeah, that's fine. I've got a lot of friends that play old games actually.

[00:02:26] And there are so many ways you can do it now as well.

[00:02:30] And you can even like the old consoles or replica consoles to play it like you used to that sort of thing.

[00:02:38] So, you know.

[00:02:39] Yeah, I know. I love it.

[00:02:41] I guess I'm into retro gaming. That's what I'll say.

[00:02:43] Oh yeah, of course.

[00:02:45] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:46] And you're back from camping?

[00:02:49] Yeah, yeah. So currently on two weeks leave from work.

[00:02:52] So we decided to go camping just for a few days.

[00:02:55] We went to a place called Achuka, which is like the northern town in Victoria where we live.

[00:03:03] It's right on the border.

[00:03:05] So we did hop on over to New South Wales a few times.

[00:03:09] So that was nice.

[00:03:12] But it was just good to get away and sleep on the ground and make food on a little guest stove.

[00:03:20] Use a communal shower.

[00:03:24] Absolutely hell to me.

[00:03:28] No, I love it. I don't know when it's just the basics.

[00:03:33] It's something enjoyable about it for me.

[00:03:35] And also we took the dog as well and went on some walks and went on a paddle steamer.

[00:03:40] Backstab first boat he's ever been on.

[00:03:43] Oh, did he behave?

[00:03:45] He was okay.

[00:03:46] He was freaked out by anything making loud voices.

[00:03:50] So when the steamer first started, he was like, what is that?

[00:03:54] But he calmed down.

[00:03:56] But he was pretty good actually.

[00:03:58] Not too bad.

[00:03:59] Oh cool. Yeah.

[00:04:01] My idea of roughing it is premium economy.

[00:04:04] Yeah, I know.

[00:04:08] You have a different idea of enjoyment and relaxation.

[00:04:15] I wouldn't be able to relax in that situation at all.

[00:04:19] Yeah, I don't know what it is.

[00:04:21] I just love just being uncomfortable.

[00:04:25] I don't know.

[00:04:28] Strange.

[00:04:29] It really just calms me and I feel so refreshed after.

[00:04:33] Like I come back and it's like, oh, like a beard feels much more comfortable after camping.

[00:04:37] But you need to have the camping first to appreciate the beard after.

[00:04:42] Okay.

[00:04:43] I don't know.

[00:04:44] Yeah.

[00:04:45] Okay.

[00:04:46] Well, glad to see you back refreshed.

[00:04:49] Yeah.

[00:04:50] Thank you.

[00:04:51] So any mailbag today Conrad?

[00:04:55] Yes, we heard from John who said,

[00:04:57] I did not have the pleasure of watching The Abominable Snowman

[00:05:01] prior to hearing this episode on a drive back from our summer place.

[00:05:05] A decent film to spend an afternoon with once we were home.

[00:05:09] Peter Cushing is always wonderful to watch

[00:05:12] and the subtle way the creature was presented reminds us less is more.

[00:05:16] Wish more modern films in the genre took a page from this book.

[00:05:20] Yeah, very nice.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:23] And we heard rather disappointingly from Serge of Cold Crash Pictures.

[00:05:28] Oh, hello Serge.

[00:05:29] Hello Serge.

[00:05:30] He said, I can't find a copy of the watch

[00:05:33] or in the woods anywhere in the States.

[00:05:35] Wow.

[00:05:36] Besides like a used DVD for $20.

[00:05:39] So I'm going to be listening to move you,

[00:05:41] but totally blind this week hasn't happened in a couple of years.

[00:05:45] Oh.

[00:05:46] Is it not on Disney Plus?

[00:05:48] No.

[00:05:49] Wow.

[00:05:50] No, I don't think it is.

[00:05:51] Wow.

[00:05:52] Yeah.

[00:05:53] It's one of those dark Disney period things where they've kind of squirreled it away.

[00:05:58] Oh, strange.

[00:05:59] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:06:00] It was such an enjoyable film for me.

[00:06:02] Yeah.

[00:06:03] I might have just secretly sent him a file that he couldn't watch.

[00:06:08] Okay.

[00:06:09] Maybe.

[00:06:11] Okay.

[00:06:12] But you didn't hear it here.

[00:06:13] But yes, that might explain why we didn't have more reactions

[00:06:16] to the watch or in the woods.

[00:06:17] But if you do manage to catch it,

[00:06:19] then please do let us know we love hearing from you.

[00:06:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:06:22] We do.

[00:06:23] We do.

[00:06:24] So Dan, what are we watching this week?

[00:06:26] Yes, I'll find out in a second.

[00:06:29] Okay.

[00:06:30] I'm in some sort of room with tubes.

[00:06:34] Oh, all these tubes.

[00:06:36] Oh, something's come out of one.

[00:06:38] Strange.

[00:06:39] Oh, it's a movie.

[00:06:40] Oh, okay.

[00:06:41] There's a ruby ring here.

[00:06:43] Shall I put this on?

[00:06:44] Yeah.

[00:06:45] I don't know.

[00:06:46] Maybe I'm not part of the society.

[00:06:47] I'll come back.

[00:06:49] Hey, psychically I'm very well-undammed.

[00:06:52] I'm back.

[00:06:53] Okay.

[00:06:54] What did you bring?

[00:06:55] So today we will be discussing from 1994 the action fantasy movie The Shadow,

[00:07:05] directed by Russell Mulcahy.

[00:07:07] Is it Mulcahy or Mulcahy?

[00:07:09] I've always said Mulcahy, but I'm probably wrong.

[00:07:12] Yeah.

[00:07:13] Anyway, directed by Russell Mulcahy,

[00:07:16] written by Walter B. Gibson, who created the characters,

[00:07:20] and also David Kapp.

[00:07:23] It stars Alec Baldwin, John Lone, Penelope Ann Miller,

[00:07:28] Peter Boyle, Ian McKellen, and Tim Curry.

[00:07:32] Ooh.

[00:07:33] And what happens in this movie?

[00:07:35] Wow.

[00:07:36] Set just after the First World War,

[00:07:39] Lamont Cranston, a ruthless warlord in Tibet,

[00:07:43] a life of villainy and excess.

[00:07:46] But one fateful day he is kidnapped

[00:07:48] and presented to the holy Tōku,

[00:07:51] who teaches him to mend his ways

[00:07:53] and harness the power of hypnosis,

[00:07:56] altering the perception of those around him

[00:07:59] to become invisible.

[00:08:01] Seven years later, Bruce Wayne,

[00:08:04] I mean, Lamont Cranston returns to Gotham,

[00:08:07] I mean New York,

[00:08:09] and becomes a city's vigilante hero,

[00:08:12] the Batman, I mean, the Shadow.

[00:08:15] But who should become Cranston's ultimate foe?

[00:08:18] Well, it's Genghis Khan's last descendant,

[00:08:21] Shiwan Khan, with his evil plan

[00:08:24] of setting off a yet to be invented atomic bomb.

[00:08:28] Will the Shadow's ruby ring-wearing secret society

[00:08:32] and sultry soft-focused love interest margo

[00:08:36] help him save the day?

[00:08:38] Or will 90s CGI prevail?

[00:08:41] We'll find out after the break.

[00:08:44] We will, and we will be joined by a very special guest

[00:08:47] to help us out.

[00:08:48] Yes, yes, we will.

[00:09:09] Our special guest today is one of the best-loved

[00:09:12] retrospective movie and video game reviewers,

[00:09:14] the director of the definitive documentary

[00:09:17] on Street Fighter II,

[00:09:19] and the owner of an enviable laser disc collection.

[00:09:22] It's Oliver Harper. Hello, sir.

[00:09:25] Hello, guys. Thanks for having me on the show.

[00:09:27] I look forward to chatting about, well,

[00:09:30] the upcoming movie we're about to explore.

[00:09:32] Yes, well, speaking of upcoming movies,

[00:09:35] I was very excited to hear that as well

[00:09:38] as making the leap from creating and editing

[00:09:41] the respective reviews and video essays on YouTube

[00:09:43] to being a feature-length documentary filmmaker

[00:09:46] that you've now taken the leap into editing an action movie.

[00:09:51] How did that go?

[00:09:53] It was a lot of fun, actually.

[00:09:55] It was also the first kind of movie

[00:09:57] to edit outside of making a documentary,

[00:09:59] but I tried to not let it daunt me,

[00:10:01] to get too stressed about it.

[00:10:03] You know, it got sent these two massive hard drives

[00:10:06] and a script, and I really had the most fun

[00:10:09] just editing the dialogue scenes.

[00:10:11] You know, I worked with a fight choreographer

[00:10:13] on the fight scenes.

[00:10:15] I didn't want to mess those up because we've all seen movies

[00:10:18] where the fight scenes, you kind of hear the stories afterwards

[00:10:20] where they cut them all down or they didn't do a good job of it.

[00:10:23] I tried to sort of make sure that the integrity

[00:10:26] of what the fight choreographer had designed

[00:10:28] remained in the movie.

[00:10:30] A couple of months to do that,

[00:10:32] and then there was more fine-tuning to do afterwards.

[00:10:34] And once it's Paul Herzog who did the score

[00:10:36] to Bloodsport and Kickboxer,

[00:10:38] he had a lot of music coming out of retirement.

[00:10:40] And once you hear that kind of scored to the picture,

[00:10:43] because Paul Herzog said to me,

[00:10:45] Oliver, you're editing, your timing is so perfect for a composer

[00:10:48] to hit the match of the beats of his music.

[00:10:50] And I was like, wow, I made his job very easy.

[00:10:52] But yeah, it was very exciting to sort of do that.

[00:10:54] And it's out, like, I think in May,

[00:10:57] and I'm going to the premiere,

[00:10:59] I think having a premiere screening in Germany

[00:11:01] in Düsseldorf at the end of this month of April

[00:11:03] and they're playing it in German.

[00:11:05] I wouldn't know what's going on,

[00:11:07] but I will know, but it will be in German.

[00:11:09] But when I see it,

[00:11:11] I just want to be there to see their reactions.

[00:11:13] Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:14] What's the title of the movie?

[00:11:16] Oh, sorry, The Last Kumerte.

[00:11:18] So obviously a play on, it's Bloodsport,

[00:11:20] which is all the whole song in the film by Stan Bush.

[00:11:22] It's Kumerte, they hear people shouting.

[00:11:25] So it's a film with complete throwback to that.

[00:11:28] It's full of all the cliches, all the cheese.

[00:11:31] It's got Stan Bush songs, you know,

[00:11:34] and I just, there's montages everywhere,

[00:11:37] so which were the best to do, you know,

[00:11:39] try to edit, editing to music,

[00:11:41] to a music track you've already got.

[00:11:43] It was so much fun, you know, so that was a blast.

[00:11:46] That was amazing.

[00:11:47] That sounds great.

[00:11:48] I heard an interview where you were going into it

[00:11:50] with some trepidation,

[00:11:52] but obviously it must have worked out well

[00:11:54] because I see your name attached to another movie now.

[00:11:57] I know.

[00:11:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:11:59] The producers, bless him, Sean David Lowe,

[00:12:02] he had said, oh, we're going to do another film.

[00:12:05] I said, oh great, you know,

[00:12:06] and he'd already put my name down on 9 dB.

[00:12:08] He's very efficient in that way.

[00:12:09] I was like, oh, I'm doing this, I might.

[00:12:11] Okay.

[00:12:13] That's filming at the end of the year,

[00:12:16] and I've got like a two month turnaround,

[00:12:18] I think, to edit the film.

[00:12:19] So that will be December, January, I think.

[00:12:22] So obviously I'm going to say to him,

[00:12:24] I need some time off for Christmas.

[00:12:25] I'm not editing over Christmas, you know,

[00:12:27] because I'll be eating food and drunk.

[00:12:30] Brilliant.

[00:12:31] Oh, I can't wait to see it.

[00:12:33] So it's an action film that we're talking about today.

[00:12:36] Yeah.

[00:12:37] From 1994, The Shadow,

[00:12:40] to kick us off, Oliver,

[00:12:41] tell us about your history with this movie.

[00:12:44] When did you first see it?

[00:12:46] It would have been on VHS in 1995.

[00:12:49] Wow.

[00:12:50] Because weirdly, it didn't show in the local cinema

[00:12:53] far as I'm aware

[00:12:54] because back in the day,

[00:12:55] Cinema Listings got checked the newspaper.

[00:12:57] Yes.

[00:12:58] It was the one in Cambridge,

[00:12:59] which is now a weather spoons pub.

[00:13:01] And it didn't show there.

[00:13:03] I think it must have showed in that Peterborough or something like that.

[00:13:05] But yeah, I saw it,

[00:13:06] because I was a big fan of Superman.

[00:13:08] I was collecting all the comics

[00:13:09] and I'll be advertising The Shadow

[00:13:11] in the back of the comic.

[00:13:12] I said, oh my God, this looks great.

[00:13:14] And then go check the Cinema Listings.

[00:13:16] Nothing.

[00:13:17] Right, okay.

[00:13:18] And then suddenly it comes out on VHS.

[00:13:19] And I really enjoyed it at the time as a kid, you know,

[00:13:22] but you could see the kind of problems

[00:13:23] which will probably explore a bit in this podcast.

[00:13:26] Because around that time, you had Rocketeer.

[00:13:29] The Phantom would have come in 96,

[00:13:31] but an Aussie Dick Tracy and the Mask

[00:13:33] was kind of weird change where Batman was so successful

[00:13:36] in 89 and everyone thought,

[00:13:37] well, Hollywood thought,

[00:13:38] well, let's try and make movies

[00:13:40] that have this kind of 1940s, 30s kind of vibe to it,

[00:13:42] production design wise.

[00:13:43] And The Shadow was very much a comic before Superman

[00:13:46] and The Batman.

[00:13:47] Batman's clearly very heavy inspired by The Shadow.

[00:13:50] And I thought this was a kind of a really good kind of

[00:13:52] introduction to that character for me,

[00:13:54] because I wasn't familiar with the radio show

[00:13:55] and all the comics of The Shadow.

[00:13:56] So it just felt so different to what I'd experienced

[00:13:59] with say Superman, Batman.

[00:14:01] Well, Batman to a certain degree,

[00:14:03] but things like The Rocketeer.

[00:14:04] And I felt quite refreshing,

[00:14:05] but it seemed to have,

[00:14:06] Aussie, it died on its ass, you know, when it came out.

[00:14:08] It did, yeah,

[00:14:09] which is the reason why I had never seen it before.

[00:14:12] I don't think you did either, did you Dan?

[00:14:14] I thought I hadn't,

[00:14:15] but there were a few scenes that I somehow remembered,

[00:14:18] like the scene at the start

[00:14:20] with the guy almost getting thrown off the bridge

[00:14:22] with the concrete blocks on his feet.

[00:14:24] I remember that.

[00:14:25] And I remember that line,

[00:14:27] the sun is shining,

[00:14:28] but the eyes are slippery.

[00:14:30] That is like ingrained in my brain.

[00:14:32] And I don't know why.

[00:14:33] The rest of the movie,

[00:14:34] don't recall it,

[00:14:35] but for some reason,

[00:14:37] those two scenes.

[00:14:39] Yeah, I don't,

[00:14:40] this was,

[00:14:41] it was essentially a first watch for me.

[00:14:44] Yeah.

[00:14:45] Same for me.

[00:14:46] I've probably grew up around about

[00:14:47] the same time as you did Oliver.

[00:14:49] So back then,

[00:14:50] back then you didn't have multiplexes really.

[00:14:53] You had two screens if you were lucky,

[00:14:55] and obviously they would pick the two films

[00:14:57] that had landed the best in the US market

[00:15:00] because it wouldn't be a day-in-date release.

[00:15:03] Sometimes in the UK,

[00:15:04] you'd wait sort of three months.

[00:15:06] So you're always excited when you had like a rich friend

[00:15:09] that was just back from a holiday in the States

[00:15:11] and they'd seen all the summer blockbusters

[00:15:13] before you had.

[00:15:14] Yeah.

[00:15:15] And the shadow was just one of those ones

[00:15:17] where they obviously didn't do well in the box office.

[00:15:20] I think it grossed 48 million worldwide

[00:15:23] on a reported 40 million budget.

[00:15:26] So it sank without a trace.

[00:15:28] It was released for the July 4th weekend in 1994

[00:15:32] where it entered the chart at number three

[00:15:34] behind The Lion King and Speed,

[00:15:36] which had been occupying the top two spots

[00:15:39] for four weeks at that point.

[00:15:41] And it dropped like a stone there after

[00:15:43] following the release of Forrest Gump and True Lies.

[00:15:46] It was one of those ones that never really got its day in theaters

[00:15:49] and then perhaps was rediscovered on VHS,

[00:15:52] but I didn't even pick it up then.

[00:15:54] So I'd never seen it until now.

[00:15:56] Wow.

[00:15:57] Yeah.

[00:15:58] It must have made some money for Universal ultimately

[00:16:00] at the end of the day on VHS

[00:16:02] and broadcasts things and rental stuff.

[00:16:04] But it's a movie that kind of,

[00:16:07] yeah, distinctly.

[00:16:08] I think maybe the marketing didn't work

[00:16:10] or people just didn't know of the shadow.

[00:16:12] I think that's the problem.

[00:16:13] He had been away for so long.

[00:16:15] I mean, for me as a first watch,

[00:16:17] it felt so eerily similar to Batman.

[00:16:21] Like it just felt like a copycat movie.

[00:16:23] And I know, like you said, Oliver,

[00:16:25] all these movies came out after Batman 89

[00:16:28] that just looked like they were copying Batman.

[00:16:31] And this feels very much like a copycat movie

[00:16:34] even though the history of the shadow

[00:16:37] comes before Batman, right?

[00:16:39] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:40] It does.

[00:16:41] Because the shadow has the cliches

[00:16:43] that you come to expect from Batman

[00:16:45] because he's a Bruce Wayne character.

[00:16:47] Lamont Cranston, isn't it?

[00:16:48] Yes.

[00:16:49] I don't know where he gets his finances from.

[00:16:51] Maybe the Cranston Pickles or something.

[00:16:53] I don't know.

[00:16:54] Well, there's Cranston Pickles in it.

[00:16:56] But yeah, it's a Bruce Wayne character.

[00:16:59] You have this kind of, he has a driver

[00:17:01] which is kind of like Alfred.

[00:17:02] You just agree you could copy that.

[00:17:04] But even though it's not his butler

[00:17:06] and he has his alter ego

[00:17:08] and he is very much Batman-like

[00:17:10] in terms of what he does.

[00:17:11] You know, the Batman has no powers

[00:17:13] and the shadow does.

[00:17:14] In terms of like, even though it's kind of weird

[00:17:16] how his powers work,

[00:17:17] I suppose we'll kind of explore that

[00:17:19] in his kind of origin stories.

[00:17:20] But you can see the familiarity

[00:17:22] is to Batman 89.

[00:17:23] This went down to the sort of hyper-reality

[00:17:25] of a 1940s backdrop,

[00:17:28] maybe 30s kind of art deco.

[00:17:30] But the Batman 89 is a kind of a mix though.

[00:17:32] It's kind of modern technology

[00:17:34] with this old kind of backdrop.

[00:17:36] It's kind of if the world of the future

[00:17:38] of the 40s kind of took over

[00:17:40] this kind of retro fitted, isn't it?

[00:17:42] In Batman 89.

[00:17:43] Yeah, that's right.

[00:17:44] So we've got this scaffolding everywhere.

[00:17:46] You've got this kind of new tech with old tech

[00:17:48] and that's kind of really interesting

[00:17:50] and I think visually stunning.

[00:17:52] And then they drop all that for Batman Returns

[00:17:54] which I really annoyed me.

[00:17:55] The Anton first design.

[00:17:57] It slightly carries over

[00:17:59] and then the shadow is very much like

[00:18:00] this is the 1930s and it sticks to it

[00:18:02] but you've got the shadow has technology

[00:18:04] that kind of fits within

[00:18:06] that sort of hyper-reality.

[00:18:08] Yeah, but it's almost that sort of

[00:18:10] almost steampunky like retro

[00:18:12] futurism sort of technology.

[00:18:14] It's stuff that could

[00:18:16] possibly exist in the 30s.

[00:18:18] Yeah, it goes just down to his wealth

[00:18:20] he has his technology

[00:18:22] maybe like five, ten years in the future.

[00:18:24] But you don't see much of it.

[00:18:26] It's only when he's like how he communicates

[00:18:28] with his followers and his agents

[00:18:30] and giving them a ring which is kind of

[00:18:32] like what the Phantom has a ring as well.

[00:18:34] So that kind of could that be also another link

[00:18:36] to the shadow and Phantom because of

[00:18:38] who's copied what, you know.

[00:18:40] Another similarity with Batman

[00:18:53] is also the villain I felt

[00:18:55] was quite similar to like Ray Shell Ghoul.

[00:18:57] So this kind of

[00:18:59] Tibetan, eastern Asian kind of character

[00:19:03] that has

[00:19:05] supernatural kind of powers as well

[00:19:07] it's kind of immortal

[00:19:09] and it also has these assassins

[00:19:11] that kind of work for him

[00:19:13] like League of Assassins.

[00:19:15] He's a descendant of Genghis Khan.

[00:19:17] So she won Khan.

[00:19:19] As a kid I always thought he was Genghis Khan

[00:19:21] but it's not, he's a descendant.

[00:19:23] I don't know how long he's lived for

[00:19:25] and how he got his followers.

[00:19:27] Other than the followers as death down to

[00:19:29] who he influences with his powers

[00:19:31] because he's obviously influenced all of New York

[00:19:33] to hide this hotel that he's occupied.

[00:19:35] They don't explain properly in the movie

[00:19:37] how the powers work and what they do

[00:19:39] what they can do.

[00:19:41] The problem is the origin story

[00:19:43] is a bit of a glimsy.

[00:19:45] And when you see a movie with texts come up on screen

[00:19:47] like George Dredd

[00:19:49] or Superman Returns

[00:19:51] you think we're in trouble here

[00:19:53] because they're just cutting through stuff.

[00:19:55] Well yes, especially when the text appears

[00:19:57] after the prologue.

[00:19:59] Okay, we're stopping now

[00:20:01] to explain things this is not a good story.

[00:20:03] Especially something that

[00:20:05] you could have shown in a montage

[00:20:07] speaking of montages

[00:20:09] you could have shown him

[00:20:11] the stories of the Tolku

[00:20:13] it is peculiar the similarities

[00:20:15] with Batman

[00:20:17] but I guess it's the same situation that you had

[00:20:19] with John Carter of Mars

[00:20:21] when it was finally adapted

[00:20:23] for the big screen everyone looked at it and thought

[00:20:25] well we're familiar with all of this

[00:20:27] we've seen it in Star Wars and you think well no

[00:20:29] this predates Star Wars

[00:20:31] it's just that Star Wars has raided the kitty

[00:20:33] and I think Batman had kind of stolen

[00:20:35] some of the shadows thunder

[00:20:37] by the time it rolled out of the gates.

[00:20:39] It rolls down with how Star Wars

[00:20:41] borrowed from Dune

[00:20:43] so you kind of see

[00:20:45] they may have dropped some things

[00:20:47] on the Lynch version to hide any

[00:20:49] comparisons that potentially could be there

[00:20:51] but also with the Shadow

[00:20:53] the follow up after Batman we had Dick Tracy

[00:20:55] who also had shades

[00:20:57] of the Shadow when LeMont Cranston

[00:20:59] puts on his disguise he becomes

[00:21:01] Dick Tracy like villain

[00:21:03] face to him and why does he have to become

[00:21:05] an ugly man with this massive schnoz

[00:21:07] it goes with

[00:21:09] his famous line is

[00:21:11] the Shadow knows

[00:21:13] but everyone always becomes a meme because

[00:21:15] he's nose he's massive

[00:21:17] so it's odd isn't it

[00:21:19] when you see like the transition

[00:21:21] when he later on the movie where

[00:21:23] he's mask comes off and you see his kind of ugly

[00:21:25] face kind of morphed down into Alec Baldwin

[00:21:27] it's kind of strange why they have

[00:21:29] when they created the Shadow we had to have this

[00:21:31] somewhat of a disfigured face

[00:21:33] yeah I mean I guess

[00:21:35] it boils down to the powers not

[00:21:37] really being there explained I guess

[00:21:39] he's making everyone

[00:21:41] see him as this other

[00:21:43] big-nosed guy

[00:21:45] with the scarf on

[00:21:47] as a disguise I guess

[00:21:49] you know yeah

[00:21:51] that's what I'm thinking Dan yeah yeah

[00:21:53] but because it's like he's trained in the origin story

[00:21:55] like he's dealing with opium

[00:21:57] he's an opium dealer drug lord

[00:21:59] and he's then taken by the Tibetan monks

[00:22:01] to be trained to because he can see

[00:22:03] the evil within people can't he

[00:22:05] has a foresight to see the dark side

[00:22:07] and yes he's kind of influenced over people

[00:22:09] so they want to master that skill

[00:22:11] and then he becomes a good guy

[00:22:13] and goes to York and he's got all this money

[00:22:15] and he's wealthy becomes his Bruce Wayne bachelor

[00:22:17] of the city and

[00:22:19] his uncle is the police chief detective

[00:22:21] or head of the police so we can influence him

[00:22:23] to stop him from you know

[00:22:25] discovering who he is or getting involved

[00:22:27] with the shadows antics

[00:22:29] and that's kind of fine but because

[00:22:31] David Kep you know he'd written Drussick Park

[00:22:33] around this time so this was an early script

[00:22:35] for David Kep he'd

[00:22:37] obviously become a very popular and very

[00:22:39] sought after writer you know he'd think

[00:22:41] his origin the writing the origin stories would be

[00:22:43] a bit more fleshed out but I think back in the day

[00:22:45] and I think it's obviously a very efficient way

[00:22:47] to tell an origin story is to give him a little

[00:22:49] bit at the beginning and then feed in

[00:22:51] their backstory through conversation

[00:22:53] throughout the rest of the film so he bumps

[00:22:55] into people or as a you know and he bring up

[00:22:57] kind of like some of their backstory

[00:22:59] quite effective way to do it to dense

[00:23:01] time but why is he in Asia

[00:23:03] why is this American guy in Asia

[00:23:05] you don't really know and that always bothered

[00:23:07] me but once it becomes a shadow

[00:23:09] and we get to New York it gets

[00:23:11] visually interesting and I think

[00:23:13] the strength of the movie is production

[00:23:15] design, cinematography and

[00:23:17] the music I mean Jerry Goldsmith's

[00:23:19] score is I think is phenomenal

[00:23:21] throughout this movie. That's amazing yeah

[00:23:23] it is yeah and it's this is one

[00:23:25] of those ironic situations where because

[00:23:27] I'm such a complete Jerry Goldsmith nut

[00:23:29] I know the... Oh you got the CD!

[00:23:31] I do yes I have in Trader CD

[00:23:33] so I know

[00:23:35] the score very very well and had never seen

[00:23:37] the movie so I'm watching the movie and

[00:23:39] sort of seeing like the music video version

[00:23:41] of this score that I love. Yeah yeah yeah

[00:23:43] probably the wrong way around to do it but

[00:23:45] I've done it so many times because Jerry

[00:23:47] fantastic composer

[00:23:49] he didn't always get the best assignments

[00:23:51] so you either

[00:23:53] have to force yourself to watch a lot of

[00:23:55] different films or and I

[00:23:57] kind of put the shadow in that camp

[00:23:59] I'm sorry to say

[00:24:01] Oh yeah, congrats!

[00:24:03] Yeah I mean just to say with Goldsmith

[00:24:05] he scored Supergirl

[00:24:07] you know not a great movie incredible score

[00:24:09] King Solomon's Mines

[00:24:11] Cannon Schlag, great score

[00:24:13] terrible film you know that's the thing

[00:24:15] with Goldsmith he just took the job

[00:24:17] and he did a lot more action scores

[00:24:19] compared to John Williams

[00:24:21] and that's why Jerry Goldsmith's action

[00:24:23] music it's like Rambo Trilogy

[00:24:25] and sound incredible and then the shadow itself

[00:24:27] it's just loads of his little motifs

[00:24:29] or little flourishes of kind of electronic

[00:24:31] sound effects like with the

[00:24:33] it's part of the score because you know you think it would be

[00:24:35] actually be a sound effect but it's actually part of the score

[00:24:37] where there's sort of a whoosh of the shadow's cape

[00:24:39] or something it sounds like you know

[00:24:41] or when he transforms and it goes into a

[00:24:43] shadow comes out of it you know

[00:24:45] it's part of the score not an actual sound effect

[00:24:47] and he has that weird rising

[00:24:49] synth tone whenever he's

[00:24:51] influencing people's minds

[00:24:53] yeah yeah yeah

[00:24:55] and you've got the great Morticia Adams kind of like

[00:24:57] the light on the eyes

[00:24:59] you know so good

[00:25:01] so good that stuff

[00:25:03] the cinematography is Stephen Burrum

[00:25:05] I did love the way that he was

[00:25:07] doing some of the effects live on set

[00:25:09] that when Alec Baldwin would start

[00:25:11] hypnotizing somebody the lighting

[00:25:13] would actually change on set

[00:25:15] every sort of introduction

[00:25:17] of Alec Baldwin he comes

[00:25:19] out of a shadow even when he's the Mont Cranston

[00:25:21] he'll like when he walks into

[00:25:23] the amazing set of that sort of restaurant slash cocktail bar

[00:25:25] the cobalt lounge

[00:25:27] that's right yeah yeah yeah

[00:25:29] he walks in like looking like

[00:25:31] James Bond yeah it's so Sean Connery as he walks in

[00:25:33] and yeah I mean

[00:25:35] it's a wonderful introduction every scene he walks into

[00:25:37] is always good and he can use these powers

[00:25:39] and I think it's consistent throughout

[00:25:41] it's also down to Russell McCay he

[00:25:43] you know best known for directing

[00:25:45] music videos

[00:25:47] and then he did the first

[00:25:49] well I didn't raise it back I think was his first movie

[00:25:51] and then Highlander and Highlander 2

[00:25:53] which was a massive stinker

[00:25:55] he did Ricochet which is a really underrated

[00:25:57] kind of action movie

[00:25:59] for years Sam Raimi had wanted to do the shadow

[00:26:01] but he's pitched whatever the universal

[00:26:03] they disagreed but they allowed him to sort of make

[00:26:05] Darkman which was heavily inspired by the shadow

[00:26:07] so Darkman has

[00:26:09] the energy and kind of sort of look

[00:26:11] of the shadow and Sam Raimi still

[00:26:13] apparently holds the rights to make a movie

[00:26:15] right right right yeah it's interesting

[00:26:17] because the movie this

[00:26:19] movie felt like a Sam Raimi movie to me

[00:26:21] like all the weird

[00:26:23] lighting like the lighting from below

[00:26:25] so that there were all these shadows

[00:26:27] on the walls in the ceiling and stuff that

[00:26:29] felt very Sam Raimi to me

[00:26:31] yeah yeah for sure and sequences like

[00:26:33] the scene where you get to see his sort

[00:26:35] of pre-internet method of

[00:26:37] sharing information from his

[00:26:39] network of informants

[00:26:41] which is just these vacuum tubes like

[00:26:43] you get in banks where they

[00:26:45] send money to the vault and they're

[00:26:47] all over the city and you get this amazing

[00:26:49] montage this travelling shot where it's

[00:26:51] flying through the city with this piece of

[00:26:53] information down various tubes

[00:26:55] oh yeah it's like Brazil isn't it

[00:26:57] Toe Gilliam's Brazil

[00:26:59] kind of future of that and it's like

[00:27:01] loads of miniature work you know as you see

[00:27:03] the sweeping shots of New York

[00:27:05] really stands up like there's a current period

[00:27:07] where obviously still CGI was coming in

[00:27:09] but also that sort of mix of the optical

[00:27:11] effects and sort of an in-camera miniature

[00:27:13] work you know so it's a great mix of

[00:27:15] different effects which 90s generally had

[00:27:17] but they went a bit too crazy later

[00:27:19] part of the decade they started getting

[00:27:21] a bit too confident with computer graphics

[00:27:23] a little bit too confident yeah

[00:27:25] I mean even some of the CGI

[00:27:27] in this isn't great

[00:27:29] it's a bit rovey now

[00:27:31] and even some of the green screen stuff is like

[00:27:33] wow that was the best you could do

[00:27:35] okay that's fine I guess

[00:27:37] I mean I guess it would have looked

[00:27:39] fine on VHS but yeah it doesn't quite

[00:27:41] well yeah there's

[00:27:43] one shot where they didn't actually finish

[00:27:45] so it's the opening sequence with

[00:27:47] him in New York right he attacks the guys

[00:27:49] comes out of that sort of fog

[00:27:51] shadow which is a really cool effect

[00:27:53] and then you see the shadows standing

[00:27:55] there also he reveals himself

[00:27:57] he has no cape the cape was

[00:27:59] supposed to be bellowing in the wind

[00:28:01] and then it cuts back to the guys

[00:28:03] go freaking out then it cuts back to the

[00:28:05] shadow as you walk towards them

[00:28:07] they're supposed to CGI this big

[00:28:09] cape you know which they do later on

[00:28:11] yeah they do

[00:28:13] already an unfinished well unfinished

[00:28:15] shot they feature in the film

[00:28:17] wow the shadow actually

[00:28:27] started off as a narrator

[00:28:29] right like he wasn't even a real

[00:28:31] character that's right yeah it was

[00:28:33] a radio show in the 30s

[00:28:35] and he was the narrator of these various

[00:28:37] detective stories and apparently the listeners

[00:28:39] responded more to him than the

[00:28:41] detective stories so he got

[00:28:43] his own series where he was

[00:28:45] played I believe by Orson Welles

[00:28:47] which is not bad casting

[00:28:49] to be nothing to be sniffed

[00:28:51] out there but he was also developed

[00:28:53] by Walter Gibson into

[00:28:55] a pulp novel character so you

[00:28:57] have 300 plus

[00:28:59] pulp novels 100 plus comic

[00:29:01] books almost 500

[00:29:03] radio shows and then

[00:29:05] movie serials so the best of

[00:29:07] which apparently is the 1940s

[00:29:09] Columbia serial starring Victor

[00:29:11] Henry in the title role

[00:29:13] but I mean just a massive

[00:29:15] multimedia empire

[00:29:17] around this character and yet

[00:29:19] in 1994 I don't feel

[00:29:21] as though many people knew

[00:29:23] necessary he wasn't really pre-sold

[00:29:25] as an IP as he would be

[00:29:27] you know in the 40s perhaps yeah yeah

[00:29:29] I think only people in their

[00:29:31] maybe 40s or 50s probably would have known

[00:29:33] of the shadow but for kids

[00:29:35] to advertise this movie to kids

[00:29:37] there are no clue who the shadow is

[00:29:39] perhaps in reintroduce the character

[00:29:41] in the comic book form the last five years

[00:29:43] but I was completely unaware of that

[00:29:45] we had a forbidden planet shop in Cambridge

[00:29:47] it's been there for years it's kind of moved around

[00:29:49] location and stuff but I never saw

[00:29:51] shadow all you're sold on

[00:29:53] was the trailer and does he look cool

[00:29:55] he does look cool he's got a good costume

[00:29:57] and the trailers really emphasise

[00:29:59] the action in the movie where ultimately

[00:30:01] the action what cripples the movie

[00:30:03] I think for me I always look back

[00:30:05] they had more action scenes

[00:30:07] they were not enough and they're always

[00:30:09] when just kicking to action it's a little bit sloppy

[00:30:11] and it's a little bit too short

[00:30:13] so you're just kind of like wanting to see more

[00:30:15] of the shadow do what he can do and just take out the bad guys

[00:30:17] so I think would have had more success

[00:30:19] if it had more action in it and there's a bit more

[00:30:21] kind of hip and cool with this kind of introduction

[00:30:23] or like Russell McKay he

[00:30:25] he knows what's cool he knows how

[00:30:27] to make cool visuals just ultimately the script

[00:30:29] doesn't kind of give enough action

[00:30:31] to sort of satisfy those teenagers

[00:30:33] who I don't want to see people talking

[00:30:35] you know what I mean you want to see the shadow kicking ass

[00:30:37] and I suppose it goes into

[00:30:39] with Batman at Batman 89

[00:30:41] doesn't really have much Batman in it

[00:30:43] you know there's always an oid me as a child

[00:30:45] it was like you see Batman beginning

[00:30:47] you know it beats up those two criminals

[00:30:49] for robbing that man in his family

[00:30:51] and then you see him at the chemical plant

[00:30:53] and he's kind of off screen for a long time

[00:30:55] until he jumps into the museum

[00:30:57] and he's off screen for a while and then comes back

[00:30:59] in the Batwing you know so there's kind of

[00:31:01] Batman returns there's less Batman

[00:31:03] as a teenager or young kid you know

[00:31:05] so annoyed

[00:31:07] Superman films never had this problem

[00:31:09] there's constant Chris Varee on screen doing stuff

[00:31:11] but like watching Michael Keaton as Batman

[00:31:13] he's barely in the suit and

[00:31:15] so you could argue the fact that

[00:31:17] okay the writer's thought well

[00:31:19] the map screen time we have the shadows

[00:31:21] kind of equal to Batman we don't have to

[00:31:23] sort of go too far spend too much money on these visual effects

[00:31:25] because he's a visual effect ultimately

[00:31:27] you know he's a mix of the two so every time you put him

[00:31:29] on screen you've got to use CGI

[00:31:31] to introduce him or have him

[00:31:33] exit the screen or you know

[00:31:35] just to do a punch you know so

[00:31:37] there's always that compromise I think that's

[00:31:39] pulling what they thought it's like we can save money

[00:31:41] by not having that many action scenes with the shadow

[00:31:43] when we do we try and make it as big as we can

[00:31:45] but it doesn't quite work

[00:31:47] It's also the fact that the shadow

[00:31:49] is mostly invisible

[00:31:51] in the action scenes

[00:31:53] I mean he flashes on screen

[00:31:55] when he kind of appears for the punches

[00:31:57] but apart from that he's not supposed

[00:31:59] to be visible so that kind of plays into

[00:32:01] maybe why

[00:32:03] he could you could argue he's not an exciting character

[00:32:05] but he's not really on screen a lot

[00:32:07] it's just more of him cackling

[00:32:09] laughing throughout the set

[00:32:11] so what's so funny

[00:32:13] what's he laughed about

[00:32:15] just walked into a room

[00:32:17] I do like the sinister side of it though

[00:32:19] because again something that Batman

[00:32:21] also probably borrowed from

[00:32:23] and certainly David kept screenplay

[00:32:25] sort of steals from the 89 Batman

[00:32:27] because you do have that first encounter

[00:32:29] with mobsters and criminals

[00:32:31] that strikes fear into them

[00:32:33] and he's portrayed as something that's pretty terrifying

[00:32:35] which in Batman's case was so important

[00:32:37] to distance itself from the Campy 60 series

[00:32:39] to establish its credentials

[00:32:41] but he

[00:32:43] it's interesting to see them take that route

[00:32:45] and then of course he's not visible

[00:32:47] for the majority of the movie

[00:32:49] and I think Kepp gives him this backstory

[00:32:51] which he never had in the radio series

[00:32:53] he didn't have in the pulp novels

[00:32:55] this backstory of him being

[00:32:57] in Asia as a drug lord

[00:32:59] is just a purely a Kepp invention

[00:33:01] I believe

[00:33:03] and he said that he created it

[00:33:05] in order to give the shadow

[00:33:07] a motivation essentially

[00:33:09] so when he says who knows

[00:33:11] what evil lurks in the hearts of men the shadow knows

[00:33:13] he thought well the reason he knows

[00:33:15] is because he's a reformed character

[00:33:17] who's seen the dark side

[00:33:19] and then you can give him a nemesis

[00:33:21] who is a nemesis in the classical

[00:33:23] sense he is the mirror

[00:33:25] image of him he's somebody with the same skills

[00:33:27] and abilities who wants to use them

[00:33:29] to empower and enrich himself

[00:33:31] and the shadow is somebody

[00:33:33] who's decided to turn his back against that

[00:33:35] and to stop it but he's always

[00:33:37] being tempted like

[00:33:39] Kahn is always sort of trying to lure him

[00:33:41] back to the dark side throughout

[00:33:43] the story so that's what Kepp thought

[00:33:45] would be an interesting dynamic

[00:33:47] for the movie I'm not terribly

[00:33:49] sure it works well what you just said

[00:33:51] it was really interesting because

[00:33:53] you've described what's kind of

[00:33:55] what Kepp has done with the film but

[00:33:57] what you said is more exciting

[00:33:59] because translating that

[00:34:01] into the film is not fully being translated

[00:34:03] you don't get a full sense of

[00:34:05] that conflict to a degree

[00:34:07] or the sort of he knows the darkness

[00:34:09] in these bad guys because he was once

[00:34:11] a bad guy so it's

[00:34:13] there but it's just not fleshed out

[00:34:15] enough to give you that emotional

[00:34:17] connection to it or to get really excited about

[00:34:19] his journey or his arc but I mean one

[00:34:21] thing I did find that was

[00:34:23] different to Batman

[00:34:25] was the fact that he does have all these

[00:34:27] agents, all these people that he says

[00:34:29] their life and now they're indebted to him

[00:34:31] forever for the rest of their lives

[00:34:33] or they have to wear the ring for

[00:34:35] and do whatever he wants

[00:34:37] them to do so that's kind of interesting

[00:34:39] because Batman's a loner he's just

[00:34:41] the one guy I mean before Robin

[00:34:43] and all the other people arrive

[00:34:45] but essentially

[00:34:47] Batman works alone whereas

[00:34:49] the shadow has all these helpers, all these

[00:34:51] agents that sort of help him

[00:34:53] and also Batman doesn't kill anyone

[00:34:55] whereas the shadow

[00:34:57] kind of does like he shoots

[00:34:59] that shard of glass into

[00:35:01] spoilers here, she won't come at the end

[00:35:03] like that's pretty, oh that's pretty

[00:35:05] brutal. Oh yeah it's pretty brutal yeah I think

[00:35:07] he's written it the way where he had to

[00:35:09] just get rid of him, just kill him off

[00:35:11] but he also they don't kill him off

[00:35:13] it's to remove that part of the brain where

[00:35:15] he can't control men's minds

[00:35:17] yeah so he ends up in an asylum

[00:35:19] screaming about being the last descendant

[00:35:21] of Genghis Khan and everybody else

[00:35:23] is screaming about being Hitler's nephew

[00:35:25] and all this kind of shit. It should have had a little

[00:35:27] some bit of ADR, someone going

[00:35:29] I'm Batman!

[00:35:31] That would have been good

[00:35:33] it's a little throwaway line.

[00:35:35] There are some lovely little bits

[00:35:37] in the movie like that I think one of the things

[00:35:39] I do enjoy is the chemistry

[00:35:41] between Alec Baldwin and Penelope Ann Miller

[00:35:43] who's saddled with this oddly

[00:35:45] confused character

[00:35:47] who has the same powers almost

[00:35:49] she's telepathic herself I think

[00:35:51] yeah that was confusing. So she's kind of

[00:35:53] this grab bag of not quite a damsel

[00:35:55] in distress because she rescues him at

[00:35:57] one point but also a little bit ditzy

[00:35:59] and yeah so it's a bit of a confusing

[00:36:01] character but you can't deny

[00:36:03] that the scenes that they have together

[00:36:05] are really fun to watch and the dialogue

[00:36:07] is fun in those scenes as well.

[00:36:09] Oh definitely, I mean you forget

[00:36:11] about who's in this sometimes because Tim Currie

[00:36:13] is in it who is like there to provide

[00:36:15] some comedy and to play a sleazy

[00:36:17] friend of you know Margot Lane

[00:36:19] and then you've got Ian McKellen

[00:36:21] who's totally underutilised

[00:36:23] underutilised and his

[00:36:25] performance is ultimately very forgettable

[00:36:27] as you say

[00:36:29] Dan he's underutilised so his skill

[00:36:31] set is not used as an actor

[00:36:33] he just plays this kind of bumbling

[00:36:35] man who's

[00:36:37] creating this atomic bomb

[00:36:39] who's really forgetful, is colour blind

[00:36:41] and a wonderful line

[00:36:43] where Margot goes

[00:36:45] I'm utterly depressed he goes oh that's nice

[00:36:47] dude

[00:36:49] it's a great little funny moment

[00:36:51] and yeah he's going to waste it

[00:36:53] but you know John Lone

[00:36:55] plays the villain

[00:36:57] incredible actor, last emperor

[00:36:59] I mean he's just phenomenal

[00:37:01] he doesn't get used that much

[00:37:03] maybe I think he prefers staying

[00:37:05] on stage instead of being on screen

[00:37:07] Rush Hour 2

[00:37:09] and some other movies which are a bit rubbish

[00:37:11] isn't his last movie in 2007

[00:37:13] like what? how come he hasn't done

[00:37:15] more movies? I'm surprised he hasn't used him

[00:37:17] in a Marvel movie you know he has

[00:37:19] such fantastic range

[00:37:21] on screen presence and he's such a good villain

[00:37:23] he knows what he's doing

[00:37:25] he knows it's like cheese

[00:37:27] a comic book he's going to play up to it

[00:37:29] and he just does it wonderfully in the film

[00:37:31] always angers me that no one really uses him

[00:37:33] that much

[00:37:35] Alec Baldwin has got faced off a fantastic villain

[00:37:37] and that's what kind of always

[00:37:39] despite it's kind of little problems script-wise

[00:37:41] origin story and not enough action

[00:37:43] I always go back to it because

[00:37:45] what really keeps it fresh for me or interesting

[00:37:47] is those performances with Alec, Penelope

[00:37:49] and John

[00:37:51] Peter Boyle as the taxi driver

[00:37:53] I mean yeah I mean

[00:37:55] very respected actor, loads of big movies

[00:37:57] he's been

[00:37:59] it's like Suri and McKellen before he was a ser

[00:38:01] in 1994 I don't think any of us

[00:38:03] would have really known who he was

[00:38:05] yeah it wasn't until Lord of the Rings

[00:38:07] everyone was like oh my god

[00:38:09] I didn't know

[00:38:11] that Suri and McKellen was on Coronation Street

[00:38:13] I didn't know that either

[00:38:15] from 2005 for 10 episodes

[00:38:17] this is after Lord of the Rings

[00:38:19] a man x me and he goes on Coronation Street

[00:38:21] yeah as a gag

[00:38:23] it's kind of a gag appearance

[00:38:25] alright alright alright

[00:38:27] I think Prince Charles has shown up at one point

[00:38:29] sorry I should say King

[00:38:31] King still

[00:38:33] so it's not a recurring character

[00:38:35] no I think it really is just

[00:38:37] a bit of a stunt casting gag

[00:38:39] no he wasn't hard up

[00:38:41] no

[00:38:47] now it's time for Random Trivia

[00:38:49] okay Dan what fascinating

[00:38:51] piece of trivia did you find in

[00:38:53] Genghis Khan's sarcophagus today

[00:38:55] yes Conrad

[00:38:57] you did already

[00:38:59] well maybe we'll see Oliver mention the billboard

[00:39:01] that's featured in the film

[00:39:03] it's advertising llama cigarettes

[00:39:05] with the slogan I'd climb a mountain

[00:39:07] for a llama

[00:39:09] so I think a lot of

[00:39:11] listers would know that this is a

[00:39:13] direct reference to

[00:39:15] the camel cigarettes ad

[00:39:17] with the slogan I'd walk a mile

[00:39:19] for a camel

[00:39:21] the original billboard also had

[00:39:23] a man blowing out

[00:39:25] spoke rings as well

[00:39:27] so it's you know did it really

[00:39:29] in Times Square so

[00:39:31] wow yeah so direct reference to that

[00:39:33] I had no idea

[00:39:35] so they actually made a live

[00:39:37] billboard blow smoke

[00:39:39] so yeah yeah that's so cool

[00:39:41] I could be wrong so anyone

[00:39:43] out there correct me but um yeah it's pretty

[00:39:45] pretty good

[00:39:47] I just want it to be true

[00:39:51] okay and that's

[00:39:53] our trivia yes

[00:39:57] it's interesting watching

[00:39:59] a superhero movie from

[00:40:01] the 90s as well because that was like

[00:40:03] peak hamp

[00:40:05] superhero movies you don't really

[00:40:07] get that now I mean Spider-Man was

[00:40:09] like that as well in early

[00:40:11] 2000s but yeah but you don't

[00:40:13] really get this really almost silly

[00:40:15] goofy wacky

[00:40:17] like superhero movie yeah it's

[00:40:19] I suppose now because

[00:40:21] of what Superman the movie was always

[00:40:23] they all sent it's Ferris the Militude is

[00:40:25] trying to keep it faithful and true to

[00:40:27] everything but it had its like kind of

[00:40:29] campy moments with Lex and

[00:40:31] you know an Otis and

[00:40:33] Valerie Perrine's character so with Batman

[00:40:35] 89 it was mostly very

[00:40:37] taken very seriously but it is also

[00:40:39] comedy moments with Jack Nicholson but

[00:40:41] then you fall into this kind of the 90s

[00:40:43] period where tonally it was like let's

[00:40:45] try make everything like a comic book and

[00:40:47] you could have those cheesy moments

[00:40:49] and campy moments where the tone kind of

[00:40:51] shifts a little bit and it went obviously

[00:40:53] like Batman and Robin and the studio

[00:40:55] is kind of lost faith in films

[00:40:57] any for a short period of time because Marvel

[00:40:59] no Marvel a new line of cinema put out

[00:41:01] Blade very shortly afterwards which was

[00:41:03] like complete revelation just taking it

[00:41:05] super seriously and X-Men was very

[00:41:07] successful so you have this kind of weird

[00:41:09] batch of the 90s where nothing

[00:41:11] you get one movie a year maybe and no

[00:41:13] one really knew what it was as well like

[00:41:15] the Mask was his kind of comic book that

[00:41:17] was based on something fairly recent

[00:41:19] but no I didn't know about the Mask comic

[00:41:21] so my kind of knew about through Defenders of the Earth

[00:41:23] cartoon show from the 80s and

[00:41:25] the Phantom had been around for decades

[00:41:27] it was really popular in like South

[00:41:29] Africa I think and The Rocketeer

[00:41:31] 1991 was a comic book from the 80s

[00:41:33] but again as a kid

[00:41:35] wasn't aware of but you know it was a very

[00:41:37] good film that didn't really do well

[00:41:39] at the box office but I think Batman

[00:41:41] and Dick Tracy were kind of the big ones

[00:41:43] I mean Dick Tracy tried to copy Batman with its marketing

[00:41:45] strategy and the Shadow would try and do

[00:41:47] some of that where you've got action

[00:41:49] movies that came out for the Shadow

[00:41:51] you had a music video as well which would

[00:41:53] kind of explore later on with the song

[00:41:57] and you had a video game that

[00:41:59] unfortunately didn't get released it got completed

[00:42:01] and then didn't get released because

[00:42:03] Ocean Software who developed loads of the movie

[00:42:05] games of the 80s and 90s for the Spectrum

[00:42:07] the Amstrad Commodore

[00:42:09] they did Batman and Robocop they did

[00:42:11] Total Recall they did every movie that came

[00:42:13] their way they wanted to make a game of it

[00:42:15] and they made the Shadow thinking this was

[00:42:17] like Batman it's a good game

[00:42:19] it plays like Streets of Rage

[00:42:21] like a scroll and beat them up I played through it

[00:42:23] before on YouTube but it's not completely

[00:42:25] it is finished but it's like really unbalanced

[00:42:27] but yeah they got completely cancelled

[00:42:29] so they saw this kind of following a strategy

[00:42:31] of what Warner's did

[00:42:33] Universal trying to copy that but it just

[00:42:35] didn't quite work because it as Conrad

[00:42:37] said very early on it was like number three

[00:42:39] on it's like what first week of release

[00:42:41] behind you know Lion King

[00:42:43] and Speed so it was already doomed

[00:42:45] yeah I mean comic books movies

[00:42:47] were few and far between

[00:42:49] whereas now like I feel like they could release

[00:42:51] anything and someone would watch it

[00:42:53] yeah yeah I mean would you say

[00:42:55] I've never seen the spirit

[00:42:57] oh that's not good

[00:42:59] it's supposed to be really bad but is that a bit like

[00:43:01] the shadows it does no I make

[00:43:03] it was definitely trying

[00:43:05] to sort of ride a little

[00:43:07] the coattails of like Sin City

[00:43:09] it's got exactly the same look I mean

[00:43:11] it's Frank Miller again but

[00:43:13] I don't know it's just not well sort of

[00:43:15] fleshed out you know plot and character wise

[00:43:17] but there's always opportunities we've had

[00:43:19] for the shadow to return they've never bothered

[00:43:21] to bring him back most down to

[00:43:23] he's so out of like what is pop culture

[00:43:25] and you know the comic book hasn't

[00:43:27] come back in any meaningful way perhaps

[00:43:29] I'm sure there's if there's fans listening

[00:43:31] who are fans of the shadow it's like oh no

[00:43:33] there's this and that out there but

[00:43:35] you know genuinely speaking most people

[00:43:37] if you ask someone who loves superhero

[00:43:39] movies about maybe 15

[00:43:41] to 18 go off you

[00:43:43] the shadow they'll know you know they wouldn't know

[00:43:45] yeah yeah I mean I guess that's a thing

[00:43:47] it's such an old property I guess as well

[00:43:49] like it's sort of pulp character

[00:43:51] property it's similar

[00:43:53] to when we covered Solomon Kane

[00:43:55] it's again a really old

[00:43:57] property that no one knows about

[00:43:59] so that movie kind of tanked

[00:44:01] as well so oh for sure

[00:44:03] the campy aspects of it though

[00:44:05] it does give rise to some of the tonal

[00:44:07] awkwardness that I found in the film

[00:44:09] because John Lone is amazing

[00:44:11] and he manages to

[00:44:13] avoid stepping into campy

[00:44:15] Fu Manchu territory

[00:44:17] but there is a scene where

[00:44:19] he's on the Empire State Building I think

[00:44:21] and a sailor

[00:44:23] misgenders him and says something about him wearing

[00:44:25] a dress because he's wearing a traditional

[00:44:27] Mongolian I think it's a deal

[00:44:29] I think it's cool oh yeah that's right yeah yeah

[00:44:31] and he uses his hypnotic

[00:44:33] suggestive power to make

[00:44:35] this guy throw himself off the Empire State Building

[00:44:37] but he does it in such a way that

[00:44:39] the guy knows

[00:44:41] that it's happening to him so

[00:44:43] he's shouting out to all of his friends

[00:44:45] I don't know what I'm doing stop me

[00:44:47] please stop me and then

[00:44:49] you cut to the next scene which goes to

[00:44:51] Lamont and Margo on the streets

[00:44:53] and you just hear him bouncing

[00:44:55] off the different levels of the Empire State

[00:44:57] where you're going oh oh

[00:44:59] at each one and I think

[00:45:01] the earlier bit is really disturbing

[00:45:03] and then this is played for laughs

[00:45:05] and not very similar to the tour

[00:45:07] I mean he'd be dead on the first level

[00:45:09] it's wonderfully sick but

[00:45:11] I'm not sure you know what

[00:45:13] movie is this I'm not sure what I'm supposed

[00:45:15] to feel watching it I think it was like

[00:45:17] how do we play into

[00:45:19] I'm not sure in America if it was a PG or PG-13

[00:45:21] so it was a PG-13

[00:45:23] you had this like you know as you're saying

[00:45:25] kind of dark element where he's going to make

[00:45:27] it commit suicide and then to

[00:45:29] lower that rating down to avoid it being

[00:45:31] an R you'd play it for comedy

[00:45:33] so you switch a route

[00:45:35] they often do that you play something for a little bit harsh

[00:45:37] and you play office comedy so you completely

[00:45:39] shift the tone quickly but then you do it too much

[00:45:41] you have this kind of very uneven tone

[00:45:43] throughout the movie I don't think the shadow is uneven

[00:45:45] throughout it's just this kind of as you mentioned Conrad

[00:45:47] you have these kind of little bits that come

[00:45:49] in that fill a bit out of place perhaps

[00:45:51] yeah there are some quite dark

[00:45:53] but like when

[00:45:55] when Cheon Kahn makes that guy shoot himself

[00:45:57] it's pretty like well

[00:45:59] that's full on

[00:46:01] and it's Neelix

[00:46:03] it's Ethan Phillips from Voyager

[00:46:05] oh yeah he makes Neelix shoot himself

[00:46:07] I mean that's unforgivable

[00:46:09] another thing that I found

[00:46:11] uneven as well

[00:46:13] David Kep talks about they actually had a rehearsal

[00:46:15] period which is you know luxury these days

[00:46:17] and they discovered

[00:46:19] that as well as being very well cast

[00:46:21] Alec Baldwin who is

[00:46:23] hot at the time coming off of hunt for it October

[00:46:25] he's able to play

[00:46:27] the darkness so he's very good

[00:46:29] at being a man about town

[00:46:31] a socialite in a

[00:46:33] tuxedo but he's also very good at being

[00:46:35] slightly unnerving and frightening

[00:46:37] at the same time which is great

[00:46:39] but they also discovered

[00:46:41] well Kep says that he had a lot of

[00:46:43] one-liners so you have

[00:46:45] things like him saying in the movie

[00:46:47] psychically I'm very well endowed

[00:46:49] or something and it's

[00:46:51] that's great that always gets a laugh

[00:46:53] but it's I mean I'm not sure

[00:46:55] that it really fits the material

[00:46:57] the inherent necessarily

[00:46:59] well when he kills that guy

[00:47:01] and they fall off the building and

[00:47:03] the weight of the shadow and also the fault

[00:47:05] kills the guy and the shadow goes to him

[00:47:07] next time you'll be on top

[00:47:09] or something like that

[00:47:11] well then you're dead then I don't know

[00:47:13] but then it's like a weird

[00:47:15] again throws into the sexual

[00:47:17] little you know

[00:47:19] comments you know Alec threw in

[00:47:21] yeah no Kep was enamoured of them

[00:47:23] and so inserted them into the script

[00:47:25] they fit really

[00:47:27] I mean I enjoyed them

[00:47:29] but I'm still just sort of looking

[00:47:31] at the movie thinking what is this

[00:47:35] yeah I mean the last act is

[00:47:37] what doesn't work for me it just felt

[00:47:39] yeah it felt very quick

[00:47:41] I know that the movie has been cut down quite a bit

[00:47:43] the Hall of Mirrors near the end

[00:47:45] sequence was heavily cut down

[00:47:47] because they had an earthquake which was the famous

[00:47:49] earthquake of the night 4 or night 3

[00:47:51] you know they featured it some of the footage

[00:47:53] in a new nightmare to where's Craven

[00:47:55] film they should have been out you know

[00:47:57] with their cameras and just filmed all this destruction

[00:47:59] because it's just like amazing production value for nothing

[00:48:01] right in the making of the movie

[00:48:03] there's a feature or something like that

[00:48:05] they put out you see the shadow

[00:48:07] see like Siwa Khan all the mirrors

[00:48:09] he's like shooting them all

[00:48:11] that's not in the film you know you just see him kind of

[00:48:13] shoot one then sort of goes around

[00:48:15] and suddenly he uses his powers and blows up

[00:48:17] all the mirrors right but it feels so

[00:48:19] cut short this whole finale

[00:48:21] it's amazing it's amazing photography

[00:48:23] and it's very end to the dragon you know with the look

[00:48:25] you know and also M'kay he can use

[00:48:27] those kind of like breaking up the panels

[00:48:29] to show his different faces and stuff

[00:48:31] so it's very clever with how it looks

[00:48:33] but it's just kind of you feel a bit short-changed by the end

[00:48:35] there's another sequence where

[00:48:37] Lamont Crouchton goes to meet Tim Curry's character

[00:48:39] you know there's no sequence

[00:48:41] where he tracks him down

[00:48:43] or phones in or something like that

[00:48:45] they meet each other in this kind of

[00:48:47] dome like structure and it's flooded

[00:48:49] but you feel like this seems missing

[00:48:51] they're being cut things don't quite cut together

[00:48:53] as one would expect

[00:48:55] yeah like I mean his way to get out

[00:48:57] is just to call Margot

[00:48:59] get her to open the door

[00:49:01] she gets there really quickly

[00:49:03] yeah I mean she's like a crosstown

[00:49:05] she does thankfully

[00:49:07] driving through traffic just to get to him

[00:49:09] and all she has to do is just open the door

[00:49:11] and that's it

[00:49:13] you know there's no like weird

[00:49:15] you know elaborate way of

[00:49:17] getting out it's just like oh yeah that's it

[00:49:19] yeah gives her some agency

[00:49:21] and something to do at least

[00:49:23] no I mean yeah I did like that

[00:49:25] aspect of it but yeah

[00:49:27] I like the part where they're chasing after the bomb

[00:49:29] in the hotel with

[00:49:31] it gives you know Iain McKellen

[00:49:33] and Penelope and Miller something to do

[00:49:35] this comedic kind of like thing

[00:49:37] where they're chasing after it and they fall over the stairs

[00:49:39] and he's about to cut the wire

[00:49:41] but also he's colour blind so she's got to help him

[00:49:43] the shadows in this kind of like flash

[00:49:45] Gordon floor which kind of

[00:49:47] tilts itself and he's like

[00:49:49] oh yeah yeah and then he goes down a super fun happy slide

[00:49:51] again

[00:49:53] action scenes that are kind of set up really nicely

[00:49:55] but don't really deliver on

[00:49:57] what was happening in cinema

[00:49:59] in the mid 90s because in 1994 you got True Lies

[00:50:01] which is bonkers with the action

[00:50:03] really explosive really at the top

[00:50:05] you know and speed as well

[00:50:07] you know the bus that won't slow down

[00:50:09] you know and but yeah so how

[00:50:11] cinema had evolved as of action

[00:50:13] you know the shadow was kind of way behind

[00:50:15] and delivering that for those

[00:50:17] action fans who are hungry to see something

[00:50:19] what the shadow can do and it doesn't really

[00:50:21] exploit that. Yeah I mean I guess it's

[00:50:23] just the sort of limitation

[00:50:25] with visual fix of the time

[00:50:27] as well I mean that's why comic

[00:50:29] movies are thriving right now because

[00:50:31] they just could throw everything

[00:50:33] they could do anything now. Yeah they don't

[00:50:35] really deploy the fact that the shadow could

[00:50:37] know some sort of martial arts

[00:50:39] but he doesn't do anything like that

[00:50:41] he just shoot you. Yeah

[00:50:43] which kind of makes sense just cut to the point

[00:50:45] but shoot you. Yeah I mean yeah

[00:50:47] using his powers a little bit more maybe

[00:50:49] like his powers of suggestion

[00:50:51] yeah and he could like levitate stuff

[00:50:53] right so at the end

[00:50:55] oh yeah throw stuff at people

[00:50:57] have a chair have a table there you go

[00:50:59] I could never figure out what he was able

[00:51:01] to do and what he wasn't able to do

[00:51:03] yeah who are you

[00:51:05] like the shadow knows

[00:51:07] but I don't you know so

[00:51:09] no well and then you find out he doesn't know

[00:51:11] he's got a network of informers

[00:51:13] that are all indebted to him

[00:51:15] so he doesn't actually know anything either

[00:51:17] so he's just some rich handsome

[00:51:19] dude who can

[00:51:21] telepathically confuse people possibly

[00:51:23] I'm not sure. Yeah

[00:51:25] and it comes up with the name Atomic Bomb

[00:51:27] before Atomic Bomb was invented

[00:51:29] so well in that history of the movie

[00:51:31] you know. Roll over Oppenheimer

[00:51:33] yeah yeah

[00:51:35] maybe Oppenheimer was the shadow

[00:51:37] happy new spin-off movie yeah

[00:51:39] it'd be great

[00:51:41] I've paid to watch that

[00:51:43] coming to you live from the movie

[00:51:45] Ubliet Theatre

[00:51:47] it's the prestigious Moobly Awards

[00:51:51] hello it's that special time of the pod

[00:51:55] at the Moobly Awards where we nominate

[00:51:57] our favourite gothicly heroic

[00:51:59] parts of the film in a number of

[00:52:01] invisible yet shadow casting categories

[00:52:03] BAST QUOTE

[00:52:05] I'm gonna go with the shadow knows

[00:52:07] because it's just so obvious and it's like

[00:52:11] it's the easy one isn't it

[00:52:13] he says it a number of times

[00:52:15] yeah he does yeah

[00:52:17] my favourite quote comes from

[00:52:19] Roy's Wife

[00:52:21] so this is one of the characters that's indebted to the shadow

[00:52:23] it is recruited into his network

[00:52:25] and Roy's Wife says

[00:52:27] you know I think they made up the shadow

[00:52:29] to make people listen to the radio more

[00:52:33] that's good

[00:52:35] that's great actually

[00:52:37] it's a really clever meta quote

[00:52:39] that she comes out with

[00:52:41] BAST HERO CUSTOM

[00:52:43] I think the shadow suit is amazing

[00:52:45] and at the end it's the best

[00:52:47] he takes the coat off

[00:52:49] and he's got the big collar

[00:52:51] and the gun holster which I always like to refer to as a gun bra

[00:52:53] so it's like

[00:52:55] he looks his best

[00:52:57] at the end looks really cool

[00:52:59] so I'll go with that

[00:53:01] yeah I mean I love the whole

[00:53:03] it's all black it's almost a Zorro

[00:53:05] esque

[00:53:07] but it's like a 30's suit

[00:53:09] with the big cape and then the

[00:53:11] the red scarf and the fedora

[00:53:13] it's just

[00:53:15] it's a great outfit

[00:53:17] yeah

[00:53:19] well I went with his nemesis because I'm always drawn to evil people

[00:53:21] Shuan Khan

[00:53:23] who has

[00:53:25] this amazing cloak at one point

[00:53:27] that perfectly matches the ornate

[00:53:29] black and gold floor tiles

[00:53:31] and the room that he's in

[00:53:33] Russell Mulcah positions the camera

[00:53:35] over the top of him

[00:53:37] and you don't even realise that it's part of his

[00:53:39] that's right yeah

[00:53:41] until he slowly stands up and the floor seems to

[00:53:43] gather up around

[00:53:45] beautifully done

[00:53:47] most 90's moment

[00:53:49] you can put this under a cliché

[00:53:51] but I think the 90's moment is having a song

[00:53:53] doing the end credits

[00:53:55] which was very, I mean it's part of the 80's as well

[00:53:57] but having a score

[00:53:59] like that is very much

[00:54:01] tonally very straight with its execution

[00:54:03] but then you have a pop song

[00:54:05] at the end, a big power ballad

[00:54:07] original sin, no it's original sin

[00:54:09] whatever it's called

[00:54:11] which I weirdly

[00:54:13] when I didn't know much about the movie

[00:54:15] we had cable TV and a channel called The Box

[00:54:17] where you could

[00:54:19] phone up to put the music video you want on

[00:54:21] and that song was on a lot

[00:54:23] on the box

[00:54:25] I was like oh wow, that's all clips in the movie

[00:54:27] and I don't mind the song actually, I think it's quite good

[00:54:29] but you know it's very much

[00:54:31] like okay we'd have a pop song at the end

[00:54:33] to try and sell the movie with the marketing plan

[00:54:37] but yeah I thought that was very sort of yeah very 90's

[00:54:39] and like again Batman Forever

[00:54:41] has it, Batman Robin has it

[00:54:43] Batman has Prince but that's

[00:54:45] I'm not sure it's doing the end credits

[00:54:47] I think the songs are featured in the film as part of the

[00:54:49] part of it

[00:54:51] I don't think the Rocketeer did that

[00:54:53] but yeah, The Shadow has a song so it kind of feels very much

[00:54:55] of that decade

[00:54:57] Mine was the most 90's thing about this

[00:54:59] is the 1930's

[00:55:01] it was very popular wasn't it

[00:55:03] in the 90's

[00:55:05] it really was and in lots of different genres

[00:55:07] so you had The Rocketeer and The Phantom

[00:55:09] as we've mentioned already but a lot

[00:55:11] of crime stories like Miller's Crossing

[00:55:13] Last Man Standing

[00:55:15] even Woody Allen's Bullets Over Broadway

[00:55:17] sort of set in the same milieu

[00:55:19] yeah

[00:55:21] and then you have The Green Mile

[00:55:23] and Life you had a lot of prison movies

[00:55:25] set in the 1930's

[00:55:27] for some reason

[00:55:29] in the 80's the filmmakers were obsessed with

[00:55:31] the 50's weren't they

[00:55:33] like Semeckis, Jodonté, Spielberg

[00:55:35] and in the 90's

[00:55:37] I don't know who decided

[00:55:39] I think people are really interested in the 1930's

[00:55:41] and 40's now

[00:55:43] I don't think they were

[00:55:45] it's like a weird thing

[00:55:47] I think it's just down to

[00:55:49] Batman's influence

[00:55:51] because we've created this kind of world

[00:55:53] and people seem to react to it well

[00:55:55] let's try and replicate that

[00:55:57] or go back to that period

[00:55:59] and he works for that movie

[00:56:01] generally but then could you introduce

[00:56:03] the shadow in the 90's

[00:56:05] set in contemporary times

[00:56:07] I think it would have been not as visually interesting

[00:56:09] so you've got that aspect

[00:56:11] so yeah it's kind of a

[00:56:13] you've got a flip side to everything haven't you

[00:56:15] yeah you do

[00:56:17] Favourite scene

[00:56:19] because despite it being cut short

[00:56:21] it looks amazing for what it is

[00:56:23] and I think it's really

[00:56:25] visually interesting

[00:56:27] and it plays on Russell McKay

[00:56:29] music video style

[00:56:31] direction and Joey Gulls with score

[00:56:33] just like as a piece

[00:56:35] is incredible

[00:56:37] and once

[00:56:39] when I put it on YouTube

[00:56:41] and my friend listened to it while he was on the toilet

[00:56:43] he goes oh that was the most epic trip to the toilet

[00:56:45] I've ever had

[00:56:47] just carried for a dump

[00:56:51] so I was like yeah okay

[00:56:53] hope you're happy

[00:56:55] but yeah it was just

[00:56:57] that whole sequence I just wish it would play that longer

[00:56:59] but it is such a great

[00:57:01] finale that is cut short

[00:57:03] my favourite was another visually striking scene

[00:57:05] which was the dream sequence

[00:57:07] the really striking fiery one

[00:57:09] with Penelope and Miller

[00:57:11] that's very very see through again

[00:57:13] but there's also a dream sequence

[00:57:15] with Alec Baldwin ripping his own face off

[00:57:17] which

[00:57:19] oh man yeah yeah yeah

[00:57:21] that was so

[00:57:23] that feels so vague Sam Raimi as well

[00:57:25] yeah it does

[00:57:27] full on like almost like body horror

[00:57:29] wow

[00:57:31] where'd that come from

[00:57:33] do I clever the transitions I put like a lamb

[00:57:35] in front just hide the cut

[00:57:37] you know it's good stuff

[00:57:39] most cliche moment

[00:57:41] I was going to say

[00:57:43] the action hero is shot in the shoulder

[00:57:45] and it doesn't impede him at all

[00:57:47] oh good one Codran

[00:57:49] just a flesh wound

[00:57:51] just a flesh wound yeah

[00:57:53] he's even stabbed with a magic knife

[00:57:55] in the same shoulder later in the movie

[00:57:57] and I was just

[00:57:59] flashing back to the Steve Martin film

[00:58:01] Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid

[00:58:03] where he gets shot in the shoulder

[00:58:05] in the same place over and over again

[00:58:07] and says this is never gonna heal

[00:58:09] that is good

[00:58:11] love it

[00:58:13] all right cliche for me

[00:58:15] so if you've got a cabaret lounge

[00:58:17] in a movie

[00:58:19] like it always starts with

[00:58:21] the singer starting a song

[00:58:23] like in an insult to truth

[00:58:25] of course yeah

[00:58:27] that is the establishing shot

[00:58:29] of every cabaret lounge scene

[00:58:31] spot on Dan

[00:58:33] spot on yes totally

[00:58:35] it's so true oh gosh I'm having flashbacks

[00:58:37] to Dark City

[00:58:39] Rocketeer does it as well

[00:58:41] yeah

[00:58:43] best special effect

[00:58:45] it's got to be when he appears on the stairs

[00:58:47] in the hotel

[00:58:49] that is the best

[00:58:51] showing you appearing from shadow

[00:58:53] or out of like the fog as it were

[00:58:55] just into being on camera

[00:58:57] and then it's got the onset

[00:58:59] flashing lighting strobe lighting

[00:59:01] simulating the lightning outside the building

[00:59:03] it's all kind of teased up

[00:59:05] so well

[00:59:07] and he turns to camera

[00:59:09] with the classic look

[00:59:11] of the hat and the mask and the lighting goes off

[00:59:13] and it's all just like amazing visuals

[00:59:15] and as I said

[00:59:17] it's trailer fudder material

[00:59:19] every trailer you'd have

[00:59:21] that looks fucking great but put it in the trailer

[00:59:23] yeah that's the best shot

[00:59:25] easily

[00:59:27] my favourite was the

[00:59:29] sailor falling off the Empire State Building

[00:59:31] even though I have issues with it

[00:59:33] but

[00:59:35] the physics are really convincing

[00:59:37] and it's a hand animated

[00:59:39] CGI element

[00:59:41] animated by a guy named Fumi Mashimo

[00:59:43] at Illusion Arts

[00:59:45] apparently

[00:59:47] nicely done

[00:59:49] very well done

[00:59:51] and done for comedy as well

[00:59:53] yeah

[00:59:55] favourite sound you fat

[00:59:57] yeah I think we were discussing the music

[00:59:59] and because

[01:00:01] as composers do

[01:00:03] and how the mix of sound effects

[01:00:05] it's often the case is

[01:00:07] who's fighting for what in terms of the space

[01:00:09] or the soundtrack and I think

[01:00:11] the sound effect in his score

[01:00:13] with the sort of as Conrad said

[01:00:15] build up

[01:00:17] kind of whoosh sound he puts in

[01:00:19] I think kind of works really well

[01:00:21] because everything else in the movie

[01:00:23] there isn't a unique sound to the movie

[01:00:25] I don't think

[01:00:27] I think it's very plays on sounds you've kind of heard before

[01:00:29] it's not like you watch Star Wars and go

[01:00:31] that's really interesting sound effect

[01:00:33] like Ben Burt would do

[01:00:35] but in terms of the shadow I think it's kind of more down to

[01:00:37] Jerry Goldsmith being creative

[01:00:39] and creating synthesized sound effects

[01:00:41] to sort of utilizing the movie that's part of the score itself

[01:00:43] so I think that's kind of what I like about it

[01:00:45] yeah yeah

[01:00:47] well my favourite sound effect

[01:00:49] in this movie is also a Jerry Goldsmith pull

[01:00:51] which is

[01:00:53] at the moment when

[01:00:55] it's a delicious moment

[01:00:57] and he tries to give Margo hypnotic suggestions

[01:00:59] to forget him

[01:01:01] and it does not work

[01:01:03] because she also has his power

[01:01:05] so she just looks blankly at him

[01:01:07] and says are you drunk?

[01:01:09] I really understand what he's doing

[01:01:11] and Jerry Goldsmith in the background

[01:01:13] has fully employed his

[01:01:15] cyclical sort of hypnotic figure with the synthesizers

[01:01:17] and as soon as it becomes apparent

[01:01:19] it's not working

[01:01:21] he pulls the plug on it and it unwines like a record player

[01:01:23] slowing down

[01:01:25] and it's hilarious

[01:01:27] I don't know if Jerry

[01:01:29] designed it that way or if some

[01:01:31] enterprising sound designer did it

[01:01:33] but it's a lovely moment

[01:01:35] That's really good, good choice man

[01:01:37] Most funniest moment

[01:01:39] Well I mentioned earlier with Tim Curry going

[01:01:41] the shadow, where?

[01:01:43] I love that little moment

[01:01:45] and when Margo says she's

[01:01:47] utterly depressed that the McKellen just goes

[01:01:49] oh that's nice dear

[01:01:51] there's other little moments

[01:01:53] but those two always stood out as a kid

[01:01:55] because Tim Curry's always kind of deployed

[01:01:57] to be

[01:01:59] he's so good at humour, being comical

[01:02:01] it's no reason for Tim Curry

[01:02:03] to be in this movie because

[01:02:05] I think that 90s period is a

[01:02:07] jobbing actor and he's popped up in everything

[01:02:09] supporting role

[01:02:11] I wouldn't say

[01:02:13] no to have Tim Curry in a movie anyway

[01:02:15] I was like yeah put him in it, he's funny

[01:02:17] I think McClaymore

[01:02:19] was always good

[01:02:21] but he's like, you guys are chicken

[01:02:23] he's got the fard of his bullets

[01:02:25] it just looks

[01:02:27] Tim Curry and his eye bags

[01:02:29] you can't, you always need

[01:02:31] I think the eye bags have their own role

[01:02:33] in a movie with Tim Curry

[01:02:35] they're paid as well

[01:02:39] The only time in the movie

[01:02:41] when I laughed out loud

[01:02:43] was after the horror scene

[01:02:45] where Lamont rips his face off

[01:02:47] to reveal Siwan Khan

[01:02:49] he goes to tell

[01:02:51] Margot and asks her if she slept well

[01:02:53] and she describes this wonderful

[01:02:55] dream where she was on a beach or something

[01:02:57] in a lovely time

[01:02:59] and she asks him about his dream

[01:03:01] and he says I ripped my own face off

[01:03:03] and she just replies

[01:03:05] you have problems

[01:03:11] I love how he responds as well

[01:03:13] it's like I'm aware of them

[01:03:15] yeah

[01:03:17] and that's our Moobly Awards

[01:03:25] Hello this is Robert Picardo

[01:03:27] and you're listening to Movie Mooblyette

[01:03:31] It's time for our final verdicts

[01:03:37] should the Shadow from 1994

[01:03:39] be set free from its solid

[01:03:41] silver sarcophagus

[01:03:43] bonds, rule the minds of all

[01:03:45] cinema lovers and be worshiped

[01:03:47] or should it be stabbed with a 90s

[01:03:49] CGI flying dagger

[01:03:51] and be thrown back into the Oobly

[01:03:53] at lost in the annals of history

[01:03:55] alright Oliver

[01:03:57] it's The Shadow

[01:03:59] does this movie still hold up for you

[01:04:01] Yeah it does, I think

[01:04:03] the strength of its visuals

[01:04:05] its production design, music and performances

[01:04:07] help it stand up

[01:04:09] it's got obvious faults with its action

[01:04:11] and the story

[01:04:13] where things aren't well explained

[01:04:15] and it kind of expects the audience to fill in the gaps perhaps

[01:04:17] and it could be down to the fact that Universal

[01:04:19] may have cut it down from

[01:04:21] a 2 hour 20 movie down to

[01:04:23] 148 or something

[01:04:25] but it's

[01:04:27] after what

[01:04:29] nearly 30 years since it came out

[01:04:31] it still holds up in many ways

[01:04:33] and I think it's a film that should be

[01:04:35] reassessed, analysed by

[01:04:37] potentially younger fans of

[01:04:39] superhero movies

[01:04:41] to demonstrate things are little different

[01:04:43] not be so stuck to

[01:04:45] the sort of regiment way that Marvel

[01:04:47] put stuff out and how they construct their movies

[01:04:49] have something that's a little bit more playful

[01:04:51] has more fun with the genre

[01:04:53] and show a character

[01:04:55] that is flawed but

[01:04:57] he's not straightforward good guy

[01:04:59] but he has darker elements

[01:05:01] very much you could argue

[01:05:03] the same with Batman but there's a lot more stuff

[01:05:05] you can do with The Shadow I think

[01:05:07] than the film kind of portrays

[01:05:09] but I think there's enough there to keep

[01:05:11] a younger audience engaged

[01:05:13] and show some cool visuals and I think that's why

[01:05:15] I still go back to it

[01:05:17] now and again and it's such a

[01:05:19] it's not a perfect movie, it's not a bad movie

[01:05:21] it's just a very easy film to watch

[01:05:23] I think that's the good thing about it

[01:05:25] you can put it on and not be offended by it

[01:05:27] it's just kind of an easy watch

[01:05:29] you know

[01:05:31] What did you think Dan?

[01:05:33] I want to hear your thoughts first

[01:05:35] hahahaha

[01:05:37] I'm scared

[01:05:39] hahahaha

[01:05:41] it's funny coming to it

[01:05:43] fresh

[01:05:45] because

[01:05:47] on the one hand it's sort of nostalgic

[01:05:49] to see

[01:05:51] a bit of blockbuster 90s

[01:05:53] or 80s style

[01:05:55] film making that you've not seen

[01:05:57] because so many things now are sort of

[01:05:59] emulating that style or trying to recapture it

[01:06:01] so to actually find one that is

[01:06:03] vintage that's just been locked in the

[01:06:05] Ubliet and forgotten about

[01:06:07] and it's quite fun, it's quite nostalgic

[01:06:09] and like so many of the films

[01:06:11] that we've discovered that bombed

[01:06:13] when they were first released

[01:06:15] there's nothing really wrong

[01:06:17] with it in a way that would make you hate it

[01:06:19] but again

[01:06:21] you can see why everybody criticised at the time

[01:06:23] because critically it was pretty mixed

[01:06:25] I think the response

[01:06:27] and I think the problems that we've identified

[01:06:29] with it, there are weaknesses in the writing

[01:06:31] and certainly it's been compromised by the

[01:06:33] earthquake and the finale

[01:06:35] I don't know, I find it very difficult to decide

[01:06:37] it's beautiful to look at

[01:06:39] it doesn't make a lot of sense

[01:06:41] tonally it's a bit all over the map

[01:06:43] but I kind of like

[01:06:45] the two central, well the three

[01:06:47] central performances

[01:06:49] a lot and I did sort of enjoy it

[01:06:51] so I don't know, I'm kind of

[01:06:53] ambivalent about it, it could go either way

[01:06:55] with me

[01:06:57] Interesting

[01:06:59] Okay Dan

[01:07:01] Where are you going to go with this?

[01:07:03] Right off the bat, I wish I'd seen this movie

[01:07:05] as a kid, I think I would have loved it

[01:07:07] I do realise it has flaws

[01:07:09] and I don't think the third act

[01:07:11] works at all

[01:07:13] but I was always interested

[01:07:15] like every scene

[01:07:17] there's just something interesting

[01:07:19] whether it's the dialogue or the

[01:07:21] character dynamics between all the different characters

[01:07:23] or just

[01:07:25] the superhero aspect of

[01:07:27] the cackling villain

[01:07:29] that's great, the bat paintings are amazing

[01:07:31] the cityscape

[01:07:33] of New York is just incredible

[01:07:35] to see, I loved

[01:07:37] every single scene

[01:07:39] has this kind of background

[01:07:41] of Gothic New York

[01:07:43] sort of reimagined

[01:07:45] it's a really

[01:07:47] great visual film with

[01:07:49] funny moments and ridiculous moments

[01:07:51] it's kind of all the things I wish

[01:07:53] comic book movies were still

[01:07:55] because they're just so serious now

[01:07:57] and so

[01:07:59] I don't know, they're just trying to please

[01:08:01] everyone and where this movie is

[01:08:03] it's kind of

[01:08:05] its own thing, you know

[01:08:07] I remember doing in 90s

[01:08:09] my friends would complain

[01:08:11] about another Danny Elfman score

[01:08:13] it sounds like this

[01:08:15] it sounds like Batman, Dick Tracy

[01:08:17] especially when Spider-Man came out

[01:08:19] and then after a number of years

[01:08:21] being inundated with hands-in-the-type scores

[01:08:23] you're like, oh my god

[01:08:25] I wish for a Danny Elfman score

[01:08:27] so now it's like

[01:08:29] I wish superhero films would have this

[01:08:31] not be stuck to a formula

[01:08:33] and just go crazy with it

[01:08:35] or just, you know, we can do our own thing

[01:08:37] and just take a risk

[01:08:39] yeah, I mean the fact that

[01:08:41] it does go a bit bonkers

[01:08:43] with the superpowers in this movie

[01:08:45] like it doesn't really make a lot of sense

[01:08:47] I mean how do you

[01:08:49] make an entire city

[01:08:51] think a building's not there

[01:08:53] like that doesn't make any sense to me

[01:08:59] no, no

[01:09:01] but yeah, I would

[01:09:03] recommend this movie, I would say this movie free

[01:09:06] yay!

[01:09:07] okay, well

[01:09:09] so if I were a no vote

[01:09:11] we would have to go to our patrons

[01:09:13] for the decider to see where they landed

[01:09:15] hello Hal

[01:09:17] yes Conrad

[01:09:18] it's time for the patrons vote please

[01:09:22] great news, they said it free

[01:09:24] oh they did

[01:09:25] interesting

[01:09:27] yeah, 83% to 17%

[01:09:30] Eddie Coulter says

[01:09:32] I have a soft spot for the classic pulp heroes

[01:09:34] like The Shadow, the Phantom and Doc Savage

[01:09:36] so I say set him free

[01:09:38] like the Phantom movie starring Billy Zane

[01:09:40] I find The Shadow to be a fun

[01:09:42] popcorn movie that should be given a second chance

[01:09:45] there we go

[01:09:46] film aficionado says

[01:09:48] The Shadow is like when I try to cook for my wife

[01:09:51] I attempt to follow the directions

[01:09:53] but end up adding too much of one ingredient

[01:09:56] and not enough of another

[01:09:58] the end result is edible

[01:10:00] and it looks vaguely like the food item pictured on the box

[01:10:02] but one might say

[01:10:04] it's a shadow of its original art

[01:10:08] that is good

[01:10:09] ultimately I throw the remaining food into our roubliette

[01:10:12] our nickname for the garbage disposal

[01:10:14] while laughing the nightly to myself

[01:10:17] I'm not sure if that's a recommendation or not

[01:10:20] I know

[01:10:21] but it's wonderful

[01:10:23] wonderfully worded, yeah that's good

[01:10:25] so thanks aficionado

[01:10:27] and finally Jasmine said

[01:10:29] the late 80s and early 90s brought us

[01:10:31] some gorgeous looking and incredibly fun

[01:10:33] one-off superhero movies

[01:10:35] such as The Punisher, The Rocketeer

[01:10:37] The Phantom with Billy Zane and of course The Shadow

[01:10:39] while I would have liked The Shadow

[01:10:41] to have been more tightly written

[01:10:43] it's still breathtaking to behold

[01:10:45] and certainly worth a look

[01:10:47] so yeah, some common themes there

[01:10:49] yeah, alright

[01:10:51] so I think we're setting it free guys

[01:10:53] alright, be free

[01:10:55] off you go

[01:11:00] so Oliver it's been amazing

[01:11:02] having you on the show to talk to us

[01:11:04] about The Shadow

[01:11:06] where can our listeners follow you

[01:11:08] and find more of your views on movies

[01:11:10] well, to make a visit to

[01:11:12] YouTube and just put in Oliver Harper

[01:11:14] and you'll find all my stuff there

[01:11:16] my retrospective reviews on movies on the 80s

[01:11:18] and 90s, new reviews

[01:11:20] on the new releases

[01:11:22] and I've covered a bunch of video games

[01:11:24] history of the Robocop games, Batman

[01:11:26] and The Terminator

[01:11:28] so yeah, a wide mix and some more

[01:11:30] with previous interviewee

[01:11:32] Rob Hill or guest as it were

[01:11:34] we've done some recent comedies on the Terminator

[01:11:36] films and Aliens

[01:11:38] so more to come

[01:11:40] yes, I've listened to a few of those

[01:11:42] they're amazing

[01:11:46] and listeners if you want to follow Movie Oobli-It

[01:11:48] we are everywhere on all platforms

[01:11:50] as Movie Oobli-It

[01:11:52] and you can also email us

[01:11:54] at movie.oobli-it

[01:11:56] at gmail.com

[01:11:58] yes, and if you want to support the show

[01:12:00] which we really appreciate, head on over to Patreon

[01:12:02] where for as little as a dollar

[01:12:04] you can nominate films

[01:12:06] for $5 you get access to our exclusive

[01:12:08] monthly minisodes

[01:12:10] and for $10 you can be

[01:12:12] an executive producer of the show

[01:12:14] like Chazilla, Eddie Coulter

[01:12:16] Isaac Sutton, Dr Doggy

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[01:12:20] photographer and Ryan

[01:12:22] mmhmm, mmhmm, thank you for all the support

[01:12:24] we also have merchandise on Redbubble

[01:12:26] and a YouTube channel as well

[01:12:28] and if you haven't already

[01:12:30] why not give us a rating

[01:12:32] or review on Spotify

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[01:12:38] it does help us out a lot

[01:12:40] it does

[01:12:42] alright Conrad, it's that time

[01:12:44] to reveal the movie for next episode

[01:12:46] yes indeed

[01:12:48] it's going to be a Patrons choice

[01:12:50] they've been nominating

[01:12:52] things all week for us including

[01:12:54] things like Looker

[01:12:56] from James

[01:12:58] the Rock and Roll Nightmare

[01:13:00] from Ryan, Keeper Anthony

[01:13:02] gave us Barbarella

[01:13:04] Serge gave us Tammy

[01:13:06] and the T-Rex

[01:13:08] Chazilla suggested Maximum Overdrive

[01:13:10] oh yes

[01:13:12] the Devin King one

[01:13:14] Boss Salvage said No Escape

[01:13:16] which is a raleo to

[01:13:18] futuristic prison drama I haven't thought about

[01:13:20] in years

[01:13:22] yeah, some great great choices

[01:13:24] in there

[01:13:26] so let's spin that Oobliette roulette

[01:13:28] and find out which one's going to be

[01:13:30] okay, give it a whirl Conrad

[01:13:32] ooh

[01:13:34] alright

[01:13:36] here we go spinning spinning spinning

[01:13:38] and it is

[01:13:42] Time Rider

[01:13:44] oh okay

[01:13:46] I've never heard of this one

[01:13:48] okay so this one has been nominated

[01:13:50] by James many many many

[01:13:52] times so I'm excited for him

[01:13:54] that it's finally come up

[01:13:56] on the Oobliette

[01:13:58] it is called Time Rider

[01:14:00] the Adventure of Lyle Swan

[01:14:02] it's directed by William Deere

[01:14:04] who I remember directed

[01:14:06] Bigfoot and the Hendersons

[01:14:08] and it stars Fred Ward

[01:14:10] Peter Coyote

[01:14:12] Linda Bauer

[01:14:14] Ed Lauter

[01:14:16] Richard Mesa

[01:14:18] and LQ Jones

[01:14:20] so I'm assuming a time travel movie

[01:14:22] 1982 Science Fiction

[01:14:24] Western

[01:14:26] oh okay

[01:14:28] I have no idea

[01:14:30] yeah, yeah

[01:14:32] so yeah that's going to be fun

[01:14:34] looking forward to that

[01:14:36] yes

[01:14:38] alright Listers that's it for another episode

[01:14:40] thanks again Oliver

[01:14:42] for joining us on this episode

[01:14:44] yeah thanks for having me on the show

[01:14:46] and it's been a pleasure and I look for 14 more of your podcasts

[01:14:48] oh thank you

[01:14:50] alright Listers until next time

[01:14:52] goodbye

[01:14:54] bye bye