Batman Returns (with Melinda Mock and Michael French)

[00:00:02] Ha ha ha! Welcome to Movie Oubliette, the film review podcast for movies most people have mercifully forgotten.

[00:00:10] I'm Dan. And I'm Conrad. And in each episode we drag a forsaken film out of the Oubliette.

[00:00:16] Discuss it and judge it to decide whether it should be set free or whether it should be thrown back into oblivion forever.

[00:00:22] A review of how others tend to forgive. Come with us and open up the Movie Oubliette.

[00:00:40] Merry Christmas everyone.

[00:00:42] Ho ho ho and welcome to Movie Oubliette episode 165, the Continental Connecting podcast with me Dan,

[00:00:51] ready to be nicely charred this Christmas in Melbourne, Australia.

[00:00:56] And me, Conrad, trying to find batteries for all of those damn fairy lights in K1, UK.

[00:01:03] In this podcast we discuss overlooked genre films, sci-fi, horror and fantasy,

[00:01:08] because nothing screams Christmas cheer more than industrialist tycoons, alter egos and umbrellas with machine guns.

[00:01:18] Hello, Conrad.

[00:01:21] Hello, Dan. So, happy Christmas. Why are you waiting to be charred?

[00:01:27] Well, I mean, there's been weather warnings this summer for Australia, because it is summer and Christmas in Australia.

[00:01:35] We're about to experience a very intense heat wave.

[00:01:41] Oh, gosh.

[00:01:42] It's going to be a hot one this Christmas, I think.

[00:01:44] I mean, tomorrow, the expected temperatures are going to be 41 degrees Celsius, which is, I just want to look it up in Fahrenheit.

[00:01:57] It's 105 degrees Fahrenheit, so quite warm.

[00:02:02] I don't know how we're going to survive, but yeah.

[00:02:06] It's going to be a hot one.

[00:02:07] Oh, good grief.

[00:02:08] So, that has happened once in the UK, and it nearly destroyed our infrastructure.

[00:02:14] We got to 40.5, I think, in Cambridge.

[00:02:17] I think we set the record during that heat wave a couple of years ago.

[00:02:21] Okay, yeah.

[00:02:22] There's going to be, apparently, a prediction this summer of reaching 45.

[00:02:27] Oh, good grief.

[00:02:29] So, that's going to be great.

[00:02:30] The highest I have ever experienced ever in Australia was 47, which was insanity.

[00:02:39] But, yeah.

[00:02:40] I mean, anything above 40 is just, yeah, it's like Armageddon.

[00:02:44] It is.

[00:02:45] I've never experienced anything like it.

[00:02:48] It's like walking around in an oven.

[00:02:50] It's really alarming.

[00:02:52] Yeah, the road is literally melting, and the bins are just compost ovens.

[00:03:02] It's horrible, horrible.

[00:03:05] It's awful.

[00:03:06] In the meantime, you're decorating your house?

[00:03:10] I am, yes.

[00:03:12] Yes, and everything has got LED lights on it, and all of them require AA or AAA batteries.

[00:03:19] And every year, I forget to stock up, and I'm scrabbling around, pulling them out of old TV remotes.

[00:03:26] Oh, right.

[00:03:27] So many lights, Dan.

[00:03:29] That's great.

[00:03:30] I mean, listeners can't see, but, yeah, your studio looks amazing.

[00:03:35] It looks spectacular.

[00:03:36] Yeah.

[00:03:37] Well, you've got to have lights on everything.

[00:03:40] Yeah.

[00:03:40] At least I don't leave them up all year.

[00:03:42] Some people do that.

[00:03:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:45] Yes.

[00:03:46] Yeah.

[00:03:47] I've yet to start decorating the house, but I will get there, because Christmas is fast approaching.

[00:03:54] It is.

[00:03:54] Yeah.

[00:03:55] It's not long now.

[00:03:57] All right.

[00:03:58] Conrad, mailbag time.

[00:04:00] Anything festive?

[00:04:02] Yes.

[00:04:02] In Santa's sack.

[00:04:03] We heard from Lisa MD23 on Portrait of Jenny.

[00:04:09] She said,

[00:04:10] I was honestly surprised this one was voted out of the jubilette.

[00:04:14] I thought the writing was pretty cheesy and, well, a bit boring.

[00:04:19] I'm not adverse to films of this era at all.

[00:04:22] I enjoyed the visual aspects of it very much and enjoyed the performances.

[00:04:26] It was simply the story.

[00:04:28] I think Cat People is a far superior 1940s era supernatural film, for example.

[00:04:34] Ah, right.

[00:04:35] Yeah, I've heard so much about Cat People.

[00:04:37] And it's had a few remakes as well.

[00:04:40] So, I'm just trying to figure out which one I need to watch.

[00:04:44] Yeah.

[00:04:44] Maybe we should start at the beginning and work forward.

[00:04:46] Isn't that one with David Bowie?

[00:04:48] Yeah.

[00:04:49] I'm not sure.

[00:04:50] I don't know.

[00:04:51] There's quite a few.

[00:04:52] Yeah.

[00:04:52] Yeah.

[00:04:53] No, I'd be interested to check that out.

[00:04:55] We also heard from Pat Mack on 2010.

[00:05:00] He said,

[00:05:01] Hey guys, I might fall away outside the norm, but I enjoy this movie much more than the

[00:05:07] original 2001.

[00:05:09] Oh.

[00:05:09] I watched it a number of times and would not be averse to watching again.

[00:05:13] I do think of it as a completely separate thing from 2001, even though it's supposed

[00:05:19] to be the sequel.

[00:05:20] The two directors are very different from one another.

[00:05:22] Anyway, this was fun to watch.

[00:05:25] Yeah.

[00:05:25] Yeah.

[00:05:26] They have very different movies.

[00:05:27] But actually, but still very closely connected.

[00:05:32] So, yeah.

[00:05:34] Yeah.

[00:05:34] Yeah.

[00:05:35] Well, Arthur C. Clarke in his foreword to the novel said that he doesn't regard them as

[00:05:40] sequels so much as variations on a theme.

[00:05:43] Hmm.

[00:05:44] Yeah.

[00:05:44] Yeah.

[00:05:44] That's true.

[00:05:45] Yeah.

[00:05:46] Yeah.

[00:05:47] James Skirman got in touch to ask,

[00:05:49] Do you have a record of how many movies you've released or thrown back?

[00:05:54] I was wondering which was the larger number.

[00:05:56] I'm guessing you've released more than you've thrown back.

[00:06:01] So.

[00:06:02] Yeah.

[00:06:03] I checked.

[00:06:03] And as of 164 episodes, Dan, where do you think we are?

[00:06:10] 164.

[00:06:11] No.

[00:06:12] I think.

[00:06:15] I think about 60% were released, maybe 70%.

[00:06:21] It's a good majority.

[00:06:24] It is.

[00:06:25] Yeah.

[00:06:25] No, you were right.

[00:06:26] Second time, 70% of them.

[00:06:28] So we have set free 114 films, eight of them with the help of the coin of fate and thrown

[00:06:35] back 49.

[00:06:36] Oh, right.

[00:06:37] Yes.

[00:06:38] I mean, there's a lot of good movies out there, I have to say.

[00:06:42] There are.

[00:06:43] And we're all about finding the good ones.

[00:06:45] So, yeah.

[00:06:47] Yeah.

[00:06:47] And also, we have a lot of guests that bring on good movies.

[00:06:50] Yeah.

[00:06:51] Yeah.

[00:06:51] I do feel like this year we've had a ton of great films.

[00:06:55] We have.

[00:06:56] Yeah.

[00:06:57] We've discovered some real gems.

[00:06:59] And finally, we heard from Serge of Cold Crash Pictures.

[00:07:04] Hello, Serge.

[00:07:05] Merry Christmas, Serge.

[00:07:06] Yes.

[00:07:07] And he said, 2010, the year we make contact, is like a slightly worse version of the day

[00:07:13] the earth stood still, the abyss, event horizon, the andromeda strain, half dozen others.

[00:07:19] But I still kind of like it.

[00:07:22] Maybe it's a little underwhelming.

[00:07:24] But when it shines, I can't help but cheer.

[00:07:27] Hmm.

[00:07:28] Hmm.

[00:07:28] I mean, I would like to see a third movie, maybe, at some stage.

[00:07:33] Hmm.

[00:07:34] Yeah.

[00:07:35] Before a reboot.

[00:07:36] I think it'd be fun.

[00:07:36] Because I'm sure a reboot's going to happen.

[00:07:38] Don't know why.

[00:07:40] Rebooting Kubrick.

[00:07:41] That would just be so wrong.

[00:07:43] Yeah.

[00:07:45] I wouldn't put it past them, though.

[00:07:47] I really wouldn't.

[00:07:48] Anyway, thanks for getting in touch this year, everyone.

[00:07:52] We do love hearing from you.

[00:07:54] Yes.

[00:07:54] Yes, we do.

[00:07:55] So, Dan, what are we doing for the last episode of the year?

[00:07:59] Well, it's got to be something festive.

[00:08:02] One moment.

[00:08:06] Oh.

[00:08:07] I'm in a sewer.

[00:08:09] What a water.

[00:08:10] Hmm.

[00:08:11] And penguins.

[00:08:12] Oh.

[00:08:13] What?

[00:08:14] What are they doing here?

[00:08:16] Especially in Australia.

[00:08:19] Oh, I think the movie's amongst these umbrellas.

[00:08:22] Hang on.

[00:08:22] I have to get the right one.

[00:08:23] Not that one.

[00:08:24] Okay.

[00:08:25] Here it is.

[00:08:27] I'm coming back.

[00:08:28] Okay.

[00:08:29] Oh, honey, I'm home.

[00:08:31] Oh, I forgot.

[00:08:32] I'm not married.

[00:08:33] All right.

[00:08:34] I'm back, Conrad.

[00:08:35] Yeah.

[00:08:36] Congratulations.

[00:08:37] What do you have for us?

[00:08:38] Well, this movie is a very obscure movie.

[00:08:44] Really?

[00:08:45] From 1992.

[00:08:46] Directed by unknown director Tim Burden.

[00:08:50] It is Batman Returns.

[00:08:53] Oh.

[00:08:54] The film that ended the year as number one in the box office.

[00:08:58] Yeah.

[00:08:59] That one.

[00:09:00] That one.

[00:09:01] Everyone's forgotten that movie.

[00:09:03] Yeah.

[00:09:04] Remind me.

[00:09:05] Who does it star?

[00:09:07] Well, I mean, before that, it's based on characters by Bob Kane.

[00:09:11] Story and screenplay by Daniel Waters.

[00:09:14] Story by Sam Hamm.

[00:09:16] And it stars Michael Keaton, Danny DeVito, Michelle Pfeiffer, Christopher Walken and Michael Goff.

[00:09:24] Yes.

[00:09:24] And what happens in this movie?

[00:09:26] I can't remember.

[00:09:28] Batman Returns in this Christmas set piece with the introduction of the Penguin, a misunderstood

[00:09:35] outcast intent on unearthing his roots, but also changing Gotham City by running as mayor.

[00:09:41] He is aided by the money-hungry Captain of Industry Max Schreck and the timid receptionist

[00:09:49] turned whip-snapping, claw-scratching Selina Kyle, aka Catwoman.

[00:09:56] Their goal?

[00:09:57] To tarnish Batman's reputation and take over Gotham City.

[00:10:02] But how can Batman clash with a salacious Catwoman yet adore Selina Kyle?

[00:10:07] Will their alter egos forever be separated?

[00:10:10] Or will mistletoe reveal all while black-footed and king penguins storm the city with rockets

[00:10:18] strapped to their backs just in time for Christmas?

[00:10:21] We will find out in this treacherous game of cat, bat and bird in Batman Returns.

[00:10:29] Oh, and we have not one but two special guests.

[00:10:33] Yes.

[00:10:34] Yes, we do.

[00:10:35] After the break.

[00:10:45] Welcome back to our discussion of the obscure sequel to Batman, Batman Returns.

[00:10:51] We were supposed to have a celebrity director joining us for this episode, but sadly, we had a

[00:10:58] schedule clash and he couldn't join us.

[00:11:01] But luckily, the skylight smashed and down swooped two figures clad in black rubber and PVC

[00:11:10] to come to our rescue.

[00:11:12] Thank you.

[00:11:13] It's Melinda Mock and Michael French of Retro Blasting.

[00:11:17] Hello.

[00:11:18] Hey.

[00:11:19] Hello.

[00:11:20] Welcome back.

[00:11:21] Hi.

[00:11:21] Thanks for having us.

[00:11:23] I am super excited for this one.

[00:11:25] This is awesome.

[00:11:26] He really is.

[00:11:26] He's wearing his Batman shirt and everything.

[00:11:28] Yeah.

[00:11:29] Couldn't have happened to a better film for Mubi Oobliad.

[00:11:31] It's like, you need me for which movie?

[00:11:33] Yes.

[00:11:34] All right, here we go.

[00:11:35] Well, we're so glad that you could join us because it will make our Christmas episode

[00:11:40] extra special.

[00:11:42] Nice.

[00:11:42] Absolutely.

[00:11:43] I mean, it's a great Christmas movie.

[00:11:45] Even better than Die Hard.

[00:11:49] So when did we all first see this movie?

[00:11:51] I saw it in the theatre as a, would I have been a tween around that time?

[00:11:58] Early teenager.

[00:12:00] And yeah, I was disappointed.

[00:12:03] Dan, how about you?

[00:12:03] I saw it on VHS as a, I don't know, 10 year old something.

[00:12:11] Yeah, this was a huge movie for me.

[00:12:15] Out of all the Batman movies, this is the one I've seen the most for some reason.

[00:12:21] Yeah.

[00:12:22] Big movie for my childhood.

[00:12:24] Same here.

[00:12:25] Yeah.

[00:12:26] I think this was 92, right?

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:28] So I was 16.

[00:12:29] And I, it was one of the first movies I drove myself to the theatre to see.

[00:12:34] Wow.

[00:12:34] And I loved it.

[00:12:37] And I mean, it's got everything I love, you know?

[00:12:40] It's got vengeance.

[00:12:41] It's got, you know, acrobatics.

[00:12:44] It's got weird Tom Waitzian creepy carnival people and cats.

[00:12:50] I mean, it's got everything.

[00:12:52] Yeah, it does have a lot of cats.

[00:12:53] Yeah.

[00:12:56] I happened to see it that summer in 1992 on a trip home from England for the summer because

[00:13:02] we were still living in the UK.

[00:13:03] Oh, wow.

[00:13:03] Yeah.

[00:13:04] I was hell bent to see the next Batman movie.

[00:13:06] And I went to the theatre and saw it and it had everything that made it superior to the

[00:13:12] first one for me.

[00:13:13] It had snow because it was set in the wintertime as an Empire Strikes Back guy.

[00:13:17] Like, that was a big deal for me.

[00:13:19] Oh, yeah.

[00:13:19] Batman shows up, you know, he showed up in the beginning in the first movie, but this

[00:13:24] movie didn't burden itself with an origin story for Batman.

[00:13:27] So he was just there fighting, you know, he was already in the action.

[00:13:31] And it had Catwoman who was already a favorite of mine, but she was also, I had learned, trained

[00:13:38] for the movie in the whip stunts by the same people that did the stuff for Indiana Jones.

[00:13:44] And she really uses the whip in the movie.

[00:13:46] So I walked away from this film and there's a lot of other stuff I love about the film,

[00:13:49] but I walked away from this one just like, yeah, that's my Batman movie.

[00:13:53] Like it goes Batman Returns, the Batman movie with Adam West, and then Batman 1989.

[00:13:59] Like those are like the top three.

[00:14:02] Yeah.

[00:14:03] Yeah.

[00:14:03] That's a ranking.

[00:14:04] So we should be honest about this.

[00:14:08] The guests that couldn't be with us chose this movie.

[00:14:11] We were on the fence about, hey, can we really claim this as an oubliette movie?

[00:14:16] But to be fair, although it did end the year as the number one in the box office, inflation

[00:14:22] adjusted, it is the second least popular Batman movie, live action Batman movie.

[00:14:30] Yeah, it is.

[00:14:31] It is second only to Batman and Robin in those stakes, which is pretty bad.

[00:14:36] So Batman Forever grossed more inflation adjusted than this movie.

[00:14:41] And I think it was regarded as a failure.

[00:14:44] It's the seal song.

[00:14:45] The fact that Batman Forever earned more, and I've known that for decades now,

[00:14:48] and this one like is just forgotten by and large or derided.

[00:14:52] When you bring it up, it's either like, oh, I haven't seen it forever or I hate that movie.

[00:14:57] That scenario should be discussed in The Hague.

[00:15:00] Like they should bring it to The Hague.

[00:15:02] This is insane.

[00:15:04] Like Batman Returns is, you can not like it, but it's hardly, hardly the least like effective

[00:15:11] Batman movie out there.

[00:15:13] So I feel like, and I'm just going to put this out at the very beginning.

[00:15:16] This movie in the Batman, especially that Batman series of films is the Temple of Doom of the Batman series,

[00:15:25] because it's really dark.

[00:15:27] It went too dark for the studio so that the next one goes way too comedic in response to it and became more popular.

[00:15:36] So the Batman Forever was way more popular, even though arguably it doesn't push the boundaries nearly as much as like Temple of Doom.

[00:15:47] Temple of Doom still has problems, but very interesting, very violent, doing stuff that the original really didn't do.

[00:15:54] Yeah, I find that Batman Returns has the right balance of like a lot of different tones.

[00:16:00] Like it is serious on lots of parts and very dark, but it is really funny.

[00:16:04] Very funny.

[00:16:05] In a lot of parts as well, like very dark, very Tim Burton-esque humor that you just would not see in a modern Batman movie.

[00:16:15] It's why I can't believe Conrad doesn't love it.

[00:16:18] Like just the idea that they talk about like murdering a bunch of children in the sewer.

[00:16:27] Like it's the funniest thing to me.

[00:16:29] I know that makes me like a depraved person, but I mean, it is, it's such a fairy tale time.

[00:16:34] It's such a fairy tale type of thing.

[00:16:35] Like it's so, it's dark, but it's deliciously evil.

[00:16:40] It's like it delights in like how messed up can I be and get away with it?

[00:16:45] Like this is a movie for children.

[00:16:46] How much sexual innuendo can possibly be in this movie?

[00:16:49] Like, oh my God.

[00:16:51] It's not an innuendo when the penguin says, I would like to fill her void.

[00:16:56] It's not.

[00:16:57] It's just flat out revolting.

[00:17:00] He is repulsive in this movie.

[00:17:04] Just repellent.

[00:17:04] Yeah, he is.

[00:17:05] I mean, that's the point though, yeah.

[00:17:08] Yeah, of course.

[00:17:09] And yet the line toward the end proves that the penguin is committed to gender neutrality.

[00:17:15] Because he says, when I blow up everybody in Gotham, their erogenous zones are going to go first.

[00:17:21] In other words, like he says it.

[00:17:22] So like everybody's going to be genderless after, I'm joking.

[00:17:26] But the point is, is that he is a dark villain, like you're saying, Melinda.

[00:17:31] And hot take.

[00:17:32] Hot take.

[00:17:33] Okay.

[00:17:33] Jack Nicholson was funny.

[00:17:35] The Joker was a great character in 89.

[00:17:38] But DeVito's penguin, he's funny and sinister and his scheme to take over Gotham and seek revenge makes the Joker look like Ronald McDonald.

[00:17:51] Like, the Joker's nothing.

[00:17:53] He's got nothing on the penguin in this movie.

[00:17:56] For sure.

[00:17:56] I would say as well, like this movie has a good amount of sort of, it still has that kind of comic book campiness that went way too far in Batman, Robin and Batman Forever.

[00:18:07] But doesn't exist at all in modern Batman movies.

[00:18:11] You don't have the really over the top villain.

[00:18:14] Nope.

[00:18:15] Like the penguin in this movie.

[00:18:17] Right.

[00:18:17] Or even Catwoman.

[00:18:19] Which is very comic booky.

[00:18:21] Now it's all so realistic and like gritty.

[00:18:24] Like the new, like Colin Farrell penguin is like a mobster mafia dude.

[00:18:30] Like he's not this Oswald Cobblepot trying to, you know, strap rockets to penguins and steal babies.

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:40] I mean, you still feel the Adam West Batman in this.

[00:18:44] Although the tone is extremely different.

[00:18:46] It's very Tim Burton-y.

[00:18:48] But I just feel like it's the perfect balance of like wacky, crazy, over the top and dark, demented, messed up stuff.

[00:18:58] And I think you'd have to be demented to sit down in a room with movie producers and say, I want to do Batman, but I want it to be realistic.

[00:19:10] And I want to look at them and be like, are you out of your mind?

[00:19:14] Like this, that's not possible.

[00:19:16] And so what you end up with is you end up with a lot of very pretentious problem, you know, with a lot of those modern Batman films where they kind of go up their own rear end.

[00:19:24] Whereas this one, I think is the perfect balance between that sort of like edgy uncomfortableness with that, like Melinda said, hearkening back a little bit to that Adam West comic book camp.

[00:19:38] It like, it finds the balance, the equilibrium.

[00:19:48] I want to hear Conrad's thoughts on why he doesn't like it.

[00:19:51] And what do you think doesn't work about it?

[00:19:54] I appreciate the carnivalesque atmosphere of the movie and the darkness of it.

[00:19:59] I was very disappointed.

[00:20:01] I was excited when Danny DeVito was cast of the Penguin because I could just imagine him doing that sort of nasally squawky voice and shuffling along as a diminutive evil guy with a monocle in a three piece suit being dastardly.

[00:20:17] Because I'm thinking back to, you know, canonical Penguin.

[00:20:20] What you got was this repulsive fish man spitting black and being misogynistic to women.

[00:20:29] And his big plan is not to take over Gotham.

[00:20:33] He's just King Herod.

[00:20:34] He just wants to kill the firstborn sons of everyone who lived there to take revenge over what his parents did.

[00:20:40] So he's the quintessential Tim Burton outcast freak.

[00:20:46] But the bad version is Edward Scissorhands, but insane.

[00:20:51] And ugly.

[00:20:52] And ugly and just repellent.

[00:20:55] Yeah, he's not going to be doing ice sculptures.

[00:20:57] He's too busy biting the heads off raw fish and murdering children.

[00:21:01] Which, you know, it's great.

[00:21:04] As you say, Melinda, I'd never thought of that.

[00:21:06] It is the Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom of the Batman world.

[00:21:10] But at the same time, just in terms of an action movie, a comic book action movie, I find it really tedious.

[00:21:19] Because basically, it's just somebody makes a speech in the town square in front of a Christmas tree.

[00:21:28] Clowns attack.

[00:21:30] They dissipate.

[00:21:31] Scene ends.

[00:21:33] Nobody seems to care about the outcome.

[00:21:36] Couple of scenes like here's a scene with Catwoman.

[00:21:39] Here's a scene with the penguin.

[00:21:41] And then somebody makes a speech in the town center.

[00:21:44] Clowns attack.

[00:21:46] They disperse.

[00:21:47] Nothing happens.

[00:21:48] Nobody cares.

[00:21:49] And I was just bored out of my tits, to be honest, as a kid.

[00:21:55] I mean, that's fair.

[00:21:57] It felt a little long.

[00:21:58] Like today, like as we were watching it, it sort of bogs down, certainly by modern standards.

[00:22:04] Yeah.

[00:22:06] But, and I will say, if we're talking criticism, like I don't need each of the characters to have an understandable and fully explained origin story.

[00:22:18] Like we see the penguin's origin.

[00:22:20] His parents throw him over into an icy creek.

[00:22:24] And then he, I don't know how he survives that, but he grows up in the sewers.

[00:22:28] The penguins look after him, Melinda.

[00:22:31] Yeah.

[00:22:32] Yeah, because they're mammals.

[00:22:34] Yeah.

[00:22:35] I guess he was like breastfeeding from a penguin.

[00:22:38] Anyway.

[00:22:40] There's an image.

[00:22:42] Right?

[00:22:44] But, and then the Catwoman thing is like, is she a zombie?

[00:22:48] Is she undead?

[00:22:49] Like, is she mystical?

[00:22:51] Like, I don't necessarily need to understand that.

[00:22:54] But what I do find frustrating is that, like, I don't understand, and Michael and I were debating this earlier.

[00:23:01] At the end of the movie, spoiler alert, we find out that her goal is to like kill Max Schreck.

[00:23:08] But everything before that does not indicate that that is her goal at all.

[00:23:13] She doesn't seem to have a goal.

[00:23:14] She's just sort of like wantonly creating chaos.

[00:23:18] And she's mad at Batman for seemingly no reason.

[00:23:22] Like, she has no reason to not like Batman.

[00:23:24] Yeah, that's true.

[00:23:25] From what I saw.

[00:23:26] Yeah.

[00:23:26] It is a weird motivations for Catwoman.

[00:23:30] Like, she just kind of does bad stuff for no reason.

[00:23:35] She doesn't really have any sort of goals.

[00:23:37] I mean, I did appreciate the sort of complexities of the characters.

[00:23:42] And I think Tim Burton has said it's because they all have a split to all the characters.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:49] I think the quote he says is what they want to be versus what they are and what they look like versus what they think they look like.

[00:23:58] You just get all the emotions of humor, horror, sadness, drama, absurdity, and reality all at once.

[00:24:06] Which you do.

[00:24:06] Like, every character has a split.

[00:24:09] Bruce Wayne and Batman, Selina Kyle and Catwoman.

[00:24:12] And then the Penguin as this Mia running for Mia figure versus I want to kill babies and shoot rockets everywhere.

[00:24:20] Like, so I found that really compelling, especially with Catwoman.

[00:24:25] Like, for me, I'd never seen a villain like this.

[00:24:29] Like, is she a villain?

[00:24:30] Is she not a villain?

[00:24:32] She's kind of, you really like her?

[00:24:34] Like, I remember watching it for the first time and feeling very sad that she dies at the end.

[00:24:40] And I kind of loved the chemistry between Selina and Bruce.

[00:24:45] Like, I thought it was quite sort of palpable.

[00:24:48] It was way better than Vicky Vale.

[00:24:50] Yeah.

[00:24:51] Yeah.

[00:24:52] And the fact that she can, you know, hold her own.

[00:24:54] She can beat up guys and taser people.

[00:24:57] Like, that's great.

[00:24:59] It's great to see in a movie.

[00:25:01] She's not just, like, screaming for help.

[00:25:03] She doesn't ever look at a male character and go, what should we do?

[00:25:07] Yeah.

[00:25:08] She's flat out formidable.

[00:25:10] And part of it is because they film it where they showcase that she's formidable.

[00:25:17] In other words, it's not a hat trick.

[00:25:19] It's watch this.

[00:25:21] We're just going to do a wide shot, like, two or three times in the movie.

[00:25:24] And we're just going to show you Michelle Pfeiffer go to town with that bullwhip on Batman.

[00:25:28] Like, we're just going to show it.

[00:25:29] And it's unbroken.

[00:25:30] No edits.

[00:25:31] No nothing.

[00:25:32] And a lot of that stuff she did in one take in those films because she trained so hard.

[00:25:37] Two years ago, for the 30th anniversary of the movie, Michelle Pfeiffer posted on her Instagram that she found the whip.

[00:25:46] She kept one of the whips and she found it while she was getting something else out of her closet.

[00:25:49] And she, like, took a picture of herself with it.

[00:25:51] Had a really nice post talking about the movie.

[00:25:53] But, yeah, like, she really knew how to use that thing.

[00:25:56] And they allowed the film to be edited in such a way where you knew that.

[00:26:01] And so, like, Catwoman is, she is probably the most dangerous villain in the Keaton slash Schumacher series from that perspective.

[00:26:11] Because, like, I mean, look, Mr. Freeze, yeah, it was Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[00:26:15] But, I mean, like, his attack was a CGI, like, laser beam or whatever versus Michelle Pfeiffer being like,

[00:26:24] I'm going to grab this wooden chair.

[00:26:25] I'm going to use this bullwhip and I'm coming at you.

[00:26:27] And it's like, oh, shit, you know, like, it's so effective.

[00:26:31] I love it.

[00:26:32] Yeah.

[00:26:33] Revisiting it, I think certainly Catwoman's arc is the thing that I am most invested in and the most interested in.

[00:26:40] I love Michelle Pfeiffer's performance in this.

[00:26:43] I love how she plays Selina Kyle as this, I mean, it's just a textbook example of misogyny in the workplace.

[00:26:51] Max Schreck, Christopher Walken's character is kind of this businessman.

[00:26:56] I was going to use a phrase there to describe what sort of businessman he is, but I'm not going there.

[00:27:01] Yeah.

[00:27:01] But he's dastardly and nefarious and he treats her like dirt and she's very meek.

[00:27:08] And I just love the writing to it.

[00:27:11] It's so economical, but so powerful.

[00:27:13] Like when she goes through her routine of going home to her apartment and you get sort of Selina's life in three answer phone messages, a disapproving mother, a date rejecting her for being too assertive and a robocall from a perfume commercial telling her that if she daubs herself in this stuff, she could fuck her boss.

[00:27:34] Can I?

[00:27:35] Can I?

[00:27:36] Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:37] But I thought this is such a beautiful vignette.

[00:27:41] And after she's shoved out of a window and she has that amazing birth sequence with all of those cats, rebirth, and then she goes back to her apartment and just watching Michelle Pfeiffer unravel and just tear her life to pieces and recreate herself as this sort of rag doll S&M dominatrix vigilante.

[00:28:06] I'm all there for that.

[00:28:08] Well, sure.

[00:28:10] This movie to me, especially if you look at the three main characters, is just sort of showcasing how different people respond to trauma, like severe trauma.

[00:28:20] That's true.

[00:28:20] You know, you've got Batman talking about, or not talking about, but showcasing, like he's trying to turn, it's all vengeance based, but he's trying to help people.

[00:28:30] Oswald Cobblepot, whatever his name is, the penguin, he is trying to help himself.

[00:28:34] And she is just bursting with rage.

[00:28:38] Like, she's never been able, she's never been allowed to express anger because women really aren't.

[00:28:44] And so she doesn't know how to control it.

[00:28:47] So it's just like this new thing that she's, and that's why when she goes home, she's just breaking everything because it's like, I'm so angry.

[00:28:54] And now I can be angry because like, no one can stop me.

[00:28:59] And it just, it comes out.

[00:29:00] It's like, it's like, I love the scene where she's helping the lady in the alley from the guy who's trying to mug her.

[00:29:06] And she kicks the muggers butt.

[00:29:09] And then the lady's like, oh, thanks.

[00:29:11] And she thinks she's like this friend.

[00:29:12] And she's like, you know, oh, and she takes it out on her too, because that woman represents like who she was and her meekness and allow, allowing herself, you know, blame.

[00:29:23] She's blaming the victim, but she's blaming herself, right?

[00:29:26] Which is what she did in the boardroom earlier.

[00:29:28] So she's still herself, but she's just got all this anger on top of it that's just coming out everywhere.

[00:29:33] I think she's definitely, I would love to see this version of this character explored more and leave out the gross penguin.

[00:29:43] To your point, Conrad.

[00:29:44] She does live at the end and everybody was hoping there would be a follow-up.

[00:29:48] And then they were hoping there for a while that there would be a Catwoman movie spinoff with her.

[00:29:54] And then it took like a decade and we got the Halle Berry one.

[00:29:57] You don't like the Halle Berry one?

[00:30:00] Does anyone like the Halle Berry one?

[00:30:02] It has nothing to do with the Michelle Pfeiffer one, thank goodness.

[00:30:05] Like, you know, it's pocket universe.

[00:30:07] Yeah, it is a movie for sure.

[00:30:12] It exists.

[00:30:13] It's so, for me, it's so bad.

[00:30:16] It's good.

[00:30:16] It's so bad though.

[00:30:17] It is.

[00:30:18] It is.

[00:30:20] Atrociously bad.

[00:30:21] I can't believe they actually released that movie.

[00:30:24] Nowadays, that would be a tax write-off for a studio.

[00:30:26] Yeah, exactly.

[00:30:27] Yeah, easily.

[00:30:28] So in the behind the scenes, apparently Sean Young really wanted to become Catwoman.

[00:30:34] She's from Blade Runner.

[00:30:35] And she showed up to the studio in a Catwoman costume, just burst into the room with Tim Burton and the producer exclaiming,

[00:30:44] I am Catwoman.

[00:30:46] Wow.

[00:30:47] Well, it's because she lost out on the Vicki Vale role.

[00:30:50] She was actually cast or something.

[00:30:52] Like, Sean Young keeps losing roles throughout her career for various reasons.

[00:30:57] Like, and I can't remember if it was, I think she lost out on this role because of a, she decided to go horseback riding like the week before they started filming.

[00:31:07] And she injured herself.

[00:31:09] And so then they were like, quick, we've got to get somebody else.

[00:31:11] And so they got Kim Basinger.

[00:31:13] So she comes back to try and get the role of Catwoman really, really hard.

[00:31:17] And they're like, ugh.

[00:31:18] And then later on, she gets the role of Tess Trueheart in Dick Tracy.

[00:31:24] And they're like, yeah, you're not working out.

[00:31:28] So Sean Young has a history of losing roles in comic book movies.

[00:31:32] Like, it's just...

[00:31:34] Yeah.

[00:31:34] That's tragic.

[00:31:35] And of course, Michelle Pfeiffer wasn't cast originally either, was she?

[00:31:39] It was...

[00:31:40] Annette Bening.

[00:31:41] Annette Bening.

[00:31:42] Yeah, that's right.

[00:31:43] Can you imagine that?

[00:31:44] Yes.

[00:31:45] I can't.

[00:31:45] I don't know.

[00:31:46] Annette Bening's always struck me as quite sort of grounded.

[00:31:50] Right.

[00:31:50] But not sort of kinky and wild.

[00:31:53] Whereas Michelle Pfeiffer, you could kind of see a little gleam in her eye.

[00:31:56] Yeah, I guess so.

[00:31:58] I thought she was fantastic.

[00:31:59] I wouldn't have thought of her being Catwoman.

[00:32:03] I think it's a pretty amazing role.

[00:32:06] And I mean, the outfit does a lot of the heavy lifting as well.

[00:32:10] The outfit is insane.

[00:32:12] That Catwoman costume is amazing.

[00:32:14] And I think she couldn't hear.

[00:32:16] She couldn't.

[00:32:17] While it's on.

[00:32:18] Yeah.

[00:32:19] Neither could he.

[00:32:20] Oh, right.

[00:32:20] Yeah, because Michael Keaton, I watched an interview earlier.

[00:32:23] He was talking about how neither one of them could hear.

[00:32:26] And they're standing however many feet apart.

[00:32:28] And so he was like, I was just watching her mouth to see when she stopped moving her lips.

[00:32:32] And then I would say my line and hope that it was right.

[00:32:35] Wow.

[00:32:35] This is acting.

[00:32:37] That's ridiculous.

[00:32:46] I mean, one thing we should talk about is the effects and just the visuals of this movie.

[00:32:52] Incredible.

[00:32:52] It's very timeless in how it's been portrayed, like Gotham City.

[00:32:57] But yeah, just all the practical effects are just outstanding.

[00:33:01] Yeah.

[00:33:02] This is one of those movies that falls into the pocket for me.

[00:33:05] I've often talked with Melinda about my theory that movies from 88 to 92, really right before Jurassic Park in mid-93, there's like this sweet spot where optical effects had gotten to a point where they were very convincing.

[00:33:19] But there was still enough of a limitation that you had to still rely on the script.

[00:33:23] And so you had to work that script to meet in the middle with these perfected opticals.

[00:33:28] So even though Batman Returns is one year after Terminator 2, and it has a few touches of digital effects in it, just a slight few, like highlights, like the flying batarang and that one shot.

[00:33:41] And I think there's actually a digital Catwoman hanging from that umbrella at one point.

[00:33:46] But that might be an animatronic.

[00:33:48] I don't know.

[00:33:48] The movie is rich in in-camera opticals.

[00:33:52] And that really helps ground the film.

[00:33:55] And I'll take that all day over digital bat tank flying over skyscraper roofs.

[00:34:06] Yeah.

[00:34:08] There are a few CGI moments.

[00:34:09] I think one of the Batmobile transformation scenes where the armor comes out as CGI.

[00:34:15] And there's a wide shot of the penguins with the rockets that's CGI that doesn't look like CGI because it's so wide that you don't even think about it.

[00:34:25] And it's kind of a darker scene.

[00:34:27] Like they hide the CGI really well.

[00:34:30] But what I was completely astounded by watching behind the scenes was all the miniatures that they used.

[00:34:37] Yeah.

[00:34:38] Because this is all set in Christmas, winter, but it's filmed in LA in the middle of summer in just huge sound stages that they had to spend three days cooling down so that the penguins wouldn't overheat.

[00:34:53] Right.

[00:34:53] And they would have the sort of ice cold breath.

[00:34:56] But yeah, a lot of miniatures with all the buildings.

[00:35:00] I just didn't even pick.

[00:35:01] I had no idea.

[00:35:03] I've never been a fan of the production design of this movie though.

[00:35:07] Really?

[00:35:07] In comparison with the original.

[00:35:09] No.

[00:35:10] I think there is a noticeable decline between the work of Anton first and the work on the back lot of Pinewood where they're sort of outdoors on a fully built metropolis street.

[00:35:24] And the production design is much more grounded in reality.

[00:35:27] I mean, it's still twisted into a realisation of a comic book version of the 1940s noir.

[00:35:34] But it is, I don't know, it just seems a lot more stately and lived in.

[00:35:39] Whereas this feels studio bound and plastic and small and just sort of the combination of massive fascist architecture with these enormous muscular statues.

[00:35:52] It works in one way.

[00:35:54] The film feels like it's stuck in a snow globe.

[00:35:57] It feels like a fairy tale stuck inside a really small snow globe.

[00:36:02] But I mean, the Batmobile can hardly get beyond, you know, 20 miles an hour because it's in a soundstage with some frozen penguins.

[00:36:09] So it just feels like a movie in a bottle for me and cramped and plasticky.

[00:36:15] I completely agree.

[00:36:16] The Gotham City of Batman Returns has always felt like it was in a kind of invisible walled sandbox.

[00:36:23] Like you couldn't go beyond these borders of this main square and a few side streets.

[00:36:28] Otherwise, it was over.

[00:36:30] However, you know how you get around that limitation, Conrad?

[00:36:34] And I think this is where Batman Returns is a masterstroke.

[00:36:37] And it's going to sound like I'm joking, but I'm not.

[00:36:40] You start that movie out and you go, all right, we're just going to have the Batmobile roll up and we're just going to have Batman just start kicking the shit out of clowns.

[00:36:48] Just like punching, kicking, setting them on fire, throwing them through shopping, like store windows and everybody just going crazy.

[00:36:58] And I'm sitting there as a kid at the age of 14.

[00:37:01] Thank you.

[00:37:02] I'm not good at the maths.

[00:37:03] And I'm sitting there and I'm just like, I hate clowns.

[00:37:06] Go Batman.

[00:37:07] And he's just tearing up these clowns.

[00:37:09] I walked away and some of my friends a few years later were like, I don't know, Batman shouldn't kill people.

[00:37:15] And I'm like, clowns aren't people.

[00:37:17] Yeah.

[00:37:18] I mean, there are some moments where you think, I'm pretty sure he just killed a clown.

[00:37:22] Like the clown strapped to the bomb that he throws.

[00:37:25] Yeah.

[00:37:26] I'm pretty sure there's a dead clown right there.

[00:37:27] What about the cop car pileup that he causes when he splits the really narrow part with the car?

[00:37:34] Like somebody had to die or at least be permanently injured in that.

[00:37:37] Yeah.

[00:37:37] You didn't ask them to drive them at the wall.

[00:37:39] Those weren't clowns.

[00:37:40] Those were clowns.

[00:37:40] We didn't ask them to drive toward that wall.

[00:37:41] Look, I hear you.

[00:37:43] I'm not complaining.

[00:37:44] I'm just saying it's a movie.

[00:37:46] But I can imagine parents freaking out at this movie at the time.

[00:37:50] Oh, yeah.

[00:37:50] Yeah.

[00:37:51] I think he definitely killed the clown where he's trying to turn the car around, say, just props it up on this bat rotisserie and slowly moves around.

[00:38:02] And then it fires off the jet propulsion thing on the back and sets fire to it.

[00:38:06] I mean, that guy's dead, surely.

[00:38:08] Oh, I mean, that's hilarious, though.

[00:38:10] It is.

[00:38:11] Because he's dressed up as a devil and he fire breathes into a store and then he gets set off fire.

[00:38:18] And then Batman drives away smirking.

[00:38:21] It's hilarious.

[00:38:22] Dan gets it.

[00:38:24] See, Dan's with the movie.

[00:38:25] Like, Dan's, aha.

[00:38:26] Oh, I laugh at it.

[00:38:28] But it's cruel, though.

[00:38:29] It's Tim Burton cruel.

[00:38:31] Yeah.

[00:38:31] It is the Temple of Doom sort of version of this.

[00:38:35] It is.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:35] It's funny, but it's cruel funny.

[00:38:38] Yeah.

[00:38:38] Conrad, these are clowns.

[00:38:44] They're evil clowns that are, like, going to kill children in a sewer.

[00:38:48] Is there anything but an evil clown?

[00:38:49] I mean.

[00:38:50] Well, on one hand, you do have to be careful because I've seen one article that describes the, they call it the Red Triangle Gang.

[00:38:57] Yeah.

[00:38:58] As sort of an analog for homeless people.

[00:39:02] I feel like that's reaching a little.

[00:39:05] Yeah.

[00:39:05] Somebody was doing their dissertation, I think.

[00:39:08] Well, I would say it's close.

[00:39:10] This is just my two cents and I'm not the arbiter of whatever.

[00:39:14] But I think that those people kind of represent the freaks.

[00:39:18] Like, all of these people are freaks.

[00:39:20] We explore that.

[00:39:22] You know, Batman's a freak and Catwoman and the penguin and all of them.

[00:39:25] But these people are also, like, carny freaks.

[00:39:29] And so they are outcast from society in their own way.

[00:39:32] I guess you could say that that's an analog for homelessness, but they don't seem like they're homeless.

[00:39:36] They seem like they are in a gang of people who are intentionally not fitting in with society.

[00:39:43] So that's not exactly the same thing.

[00:39:46] No.

[00:39:46] Yeah.

[00:39:47] I've never known a homeless person that had a functioning Gatling gun inside of, like, a monkey prime gang.

[00:39:55] That guy is, like, one of my favorite actors.

[00:39:58] His name is Vincent Chevelli.

[00:40:00] I don't know how to say his name.

[00:40:01] Chevelli?

[00:40:02] Yeah.

[00:40:02] He's in a bunch of different stuff.

[00:40:03] The guy with kind of the longer hair and he's got the organ grinder thing.

[00:40:07] I recognized him.

[00:40:08] Yeah.

[00:40:08] He was in The X-Files.

[00:40:10] He's in a ton of different stuff.

[00:40:11] I love that guy.

[00:40:13] And I saw him and I was like, I forgot he was in this movie.

[00:40:15] Yay.

[00:40:15] Yeah.

[00:40:16] Yeah.

[00:40:16] You also have Doug Jones as one of the clowns, which I didn't realize he was in this movie,

[00:40:21] which is pretty amazing.

[00:40:22] Who is that?

[00:40:23] Doug Jones.

[00:40:23] He's in all the Guillermo del Toro movies.

[00:40:26] He always plays the monster.

[00:40:27] Oh.

[00:40:27] So he's in Pan's Labyrinth and, like, Hellboy.

[00:40:31] And, yeah, he's a very great character monster actor.

[00:40:35] Yeah.

[00:40:36] Now it's time for Random Trivia.

[00:40:39] All right.

[00:40:40] It's trivia time.

[00:40:41] Conrad, what do you have bursting out of a giant present today?

[00:40:46] My piece of trivia is one that Michael will definitely know.

[00:40:50] So the person who trained Michelle Pfeiffer on the use of a bullwhip was a man named Anthony

[00:40:57] DeLongis.

[00:40:58] I might be pronouncing that wrong.

[00:41:00] Who was also the voice of Zygon in Star Chaser, The Legend of Orin.

[00:41:06] Oh.

[00:41:07] Wow.

[00:41:07] I did not know that.

[00:41:09] I didn't know that.

[00:41:10] Holy crap.

[00:41:10] I have that on Blu-ray.

[00:41:12] Yes.

[00:41:14] Yes.

[00:41:15] Okay.

[00:41:15] Previously covered on this podcast.

[00:41:17] Yeah.

[00:41:17] Yeah.

[00:41:18] I did not realize he was the same dude.

[00:41:20] Wow.

[00:41:22] Wow.

[00:41:23] Wow.

[00:41:23] My day is thrown.

[00:41:53] Holy crap.

[00:41:54] He was so beautiful out of the guy's hand.

[00:41:55] There's this shot where he kind of goes.

[00:41:57] Yeah.

[00:41:57] And it looks very weird.

[00:41:59] But at the same time, I knew that Anthony had gone way back.

[00:42:04] I think he also, I could be wrong about this, but didn't he also train Antonio Banderas

[00:42:09] for Zorro?

[00:42:10] I feel like that's.

[00:42:11] That sounds right.

[00:42:12] Yeah.

[00:42:12] Yeah.

[00:42:12] Yeah, so he is the man about town when it comes to any hero or anti-hero needing some

[00:42:19] bullwhip practice.

[00:42:20] Yeah.

[00:42:21] Oh, right.

[00:42:22] And that's our trivia.

[00:42:30] So one thing that's always leveled against this film is a criticism, or one of the many

[00:42:34] things, that yes, the evil people have a lot of great screen time.

[00:42:39] There's lots of clowns attacking people in town squares over and over and over again.

[00:42:44] Can't get enough of it.

[00:42:45] Yeah.

[00:42:46] I'm with you, Michael.

[00:42:47] I said the same thing.

[00:42:48] There is not a lot of Batman.

[00:42:50] No, I mean, Batman is like, I think we, Michael remarked today when we watched it, he was like,

[00:42:57] it's 30 minutes into the movie and Batman has his first line.

[00:43:00] Yeah.

[00:43:00] He shows up before then, but.

[00:43:02] There's not, yeah, the first sort of, yeah, 30 minutes, there's not a lot of Batman.

[00:43:06] There's a lot of Penguin and Selina Kyle origin stories, but not a lot of Batman.

[00:43:11] I don't think Tim Burton is interested in telling Batman stories.

[00:43:15] He's really ended the characters that he sort of created or fleshed out or whatever, you

[00:43:20] know, he's, that's what he wants to spend time on.

[00:43:22] Yeah.

[00:43:23] I mean, Max, Max Rick's not even from the comics, right?

[00:43:26] He's, he's completely made up for this movie.

[00:43:29] Yeah.

[00:43:29] It was supposed to be Harvey Dent, but I don't think Billy Dee Williams wanted to come back.

[00:43:33] Right.

[00:43:34] That he did get upset that he wasn't brought back for the third one because his character

[00:43:39] was to become Two-Face and they didn't ask him back for that one, but that's an aside.

[00:43:43] Yeah.

[00:43:43] No.

[00:43:44] I think maybe he was busy on this one.

[00:43:47] I found the third act of this movie a bit tedious.

[00:43:51] I think we've kind of touched on it, but yeah, the stealing babies, but that gets thwarted

[00:43:57] and then sending penguins to rockets and that gets thwarted.

[00:44:01] It's just like, what are, these are quite kind of silly plans.

[00:44:06] Yeah.

[00:44:06] I always felt like that pale lady with the dog.

[00:44:09] What's her name?

[00:44:10] The poodle lady.

[00:44:10] Yeah.

[00:44:11] She's making announcements in a booth and she sounds like Isabella Rossellini on Downers

[00:44:16] saying things like, the penguins have reached the town square.

[00:44:22] Yeah.

[00:44:23] Like the best part of the third act was Selena confronting Max.

[00:44:29] Like that was the best part.

[00:44:30] Like the penguin stuff was a bit like, okay, we've seen enough penguins.

[00:44:36] What if you could take this movie and you could just make it Catwoman directed by Tim Burton

[00:44:45] and it's just about Catwoman.

[00:44:48] Batman can be in there a little bit, you know, just to like bring people in to watch.

[00:44:52] And then it's just like her getting revenge on Christopher Walken.

[00:44:56] And that's the movie.

[00:44:57] Yeah.

[00:44:58] That would be, I would go to see that a hundred times.

[00:45:01] Me too.

[00:45:02] I would see it a hundred times, but I don't want to shortchange Danny DeVito's performance.

[00:45:07] No, I.

[00:45:08] Like he does, he does such a good, he's repugnant.

[00:45:11] He's disgusting.

[00:45:13] That's the character.

[00:45:14] But he does such a good job with the comebacks and the, and the one line, not just the one

[00:45:20] liners, but the way he reacts to people.

[00:45:22] And I mean, it's all so on point.

[00:45:25] Like.

[00:45:25] It's just the oil.

[00:45:27] It's the oil coming out of his mouth.

[00:45:29] Yeah.

[00:45:29] I can't get past it.

[00:45:31] It's really upsetting.

[00:45:33] And the fish eating scene reminds me so much of that.

[00:45:36] I don't know if you've seen the movie Trading Places, but there's a scene in that where Dan

[00:45:41] Aykroyd has a fish in his Santa costume and he's eating it through his dirty Santa beard.

[00:45:46] And that's how disgusting it is.

[00:45:48] It just is like.

[00:45:51] I can't stand it.

[00:45:53] I had, I was not watching the screen when it was on.

[00:45:56] I can't.

[00:45:57] It's horrible.

[00:45:57] Yeah.

[00:45:58] It's a, it's a lot of fish.

[00:45:59] Uh, yeah.

[00:46:02] I mean, the, the, his death scene as well.

[00:46:04] I remember as a kid being like, oh, this is so powerful.

[00:46:08] And then watching it now, it's like, those are definitely people in penguin suits waddling

[00:46:13] along.

[00:46:14] Oh yeah.

[00:46:14] And it was so obvious, but I didn't, I didn't get that when I was a kid.

[00:46:18] But there's, yeah, they did.

[00:46:19] There's like animatronic penguins at some points and like live actual penguins as well that they

[00:46:24] had to train with whistles and fish and stuff.

[00:46:28] We watched the 4k today, which we were on the fence about watching the 4k because of the

[00:46:32] color correction or whatever.

[00:46:34] It wasn't exactly right, but you can definitely tell that there are not real penguins when you're

[00:46:39] watching the 4k.

[00:46:40] I'll just say that.

[00:46:42] It's like watching the Ewok movies as a 4k.

[00:46:44] I like the fact that the penguin in this movie and the whole plot around both the penguin and

[00:46:51] Catwoman with riding right over the line with innuendo and, and violence and, and intended plans

[00:46:58] of killing kids and all this kind of stuff.

[00:47:00] I like the fact that it got all the way through production.

[00:47:05] And by the time they got a picture lock, there was nothing the industry could do about it.

[00:47:09] Like they couldn't ride it back.

[00:47:12] McDonald's got so mad.

[00:47:13] They were like, we've agreed to market this thing.

[00:47:16] And it turned out to be a horror movie, you know, and all this kind of stuff.

[00:47:19] And I'm, and I'm, I have to look back on that and be like, yay.

[00:47:23] Like, because, because for once art and its integrity won out over the Hollywood machine,

[00:47:30] like it got punished for it later.

[00:47:32] So like Batman returns gave me a huge gift, but then it also gave me Batman forever as

[00:47:38] a response, which I have to, you know, but like, I think this one moment encapsulates

[00:47:43] what I'm trying to say.

[00:47:44] There's that moment after he goes back down into the sewer, he's thrown away his mayoral

[00:47:49] ambitions because of what happened with Batman, you know, with the speaker system and everything.

[00:47:54] And he's like, no, I'm an animal.

[00:47:55] I'm not a human being.

[00:47:57] And you're going interesting.

[00:47:58] And then this one guy, this one sweet, large rotund dude who's a clown.

[00:48:04] So, you know, my take on that.

[00:48:05] I'm like, whatever you want to do to him, go ahead.

[00:48:07] But he's like, I don't know, penguin killing kids.

[00:48:12] Isn't that a little?

[00:48:13] And he just turns around and blows him away.

[00:48:15] And then he's like, no, it's a lot.

[00:48:17] And I'm like, yeah, like that's, that's the kind of movie that they would never have allowed

[00:48:23] the third Batman to be.

[00:48:24] Yeah.

[00:48:25] Oh no.

[00:48:25] You know, which is funny because now you look at those Nolan films and they're like super

[00:48:30] dark and you're going, they got mad about this movie.

[00:48:34] Yeah.

[00:48:35] Like sign of the times.

[00:48:36] Humor free as well.

[00:48:38] Yeah.

[00:48:38] Yeah.

[00:48:38] When I was watching the beginning, beginning of this again today, just to refresh my memory,

[00:48:43] I just, I cackled to myself when I realized that the opening of the movie is snow and a

[00:48:49] woman screaming in, in childbirth.

[00:48:51] And then it's the, the cobble pots.

[00:48:54] One of, one of whom of course is Pee Wee Herman.

[00:48:56] Pee Wee Herman.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:58] The parents, their dignified horror at what they've created.

[00:49:02] And I just looked at it and thought, is this kind of a metaphor for Tim Burton making this

[00:49:08] movie for the studio?

[00:49:10] That like, what the hell have we done?

[00:49:13] Let's flush this down in the sewer and forget about it.

[00:49:18] I remember watching that today, feeling tons of Phantom of the Opera vibes because that's

[00:49:24] exactly it.

[00:49:25] Like he came from this wealthy family.

[00:49:27] He was like deformed or whatever.

[00:49:29] So his parents shunned him.

[00:49:30] He had to live at the carnival and then he ends up like living in the sewers underneath

[00:49:34] the opera house and all of this.

[00:49:36] So there's a long history in Batman, like especially the films of them pulling from other sources,

[00:49:42] like the whole Mr. Freeze being the abominable Dr. Fibes and all of that.

[00:49:46] Like if you watch those two, it's insane how much they just completely copy paste.

[00:49:51] By the way, if you ever want to do that movie, you should do that movie.

[00:49:55] It's a great Vincent Price thing.

[00:49:58] But anyway, I digress.

[00:49:59] Yes.

[00:50:00] When I got back to the UK after seeing this movie, I was so like taken with the film

[00:50:06] compared to the original.

[00:50:07] I liked the original, but I didn't love the original.

[00:50:10] I really, really got into this movie and I raided Athena shops to get the poster for

[00:50:18] Batman's Batmobile with images from the film and the schematic on it from Batman Returns.

[00:50:22] Like it was this, I wish I still had that poster, but it got waterlogged.

[00:50:26] Anyway, but I also would go into WH Smith's and they would always have an end cap, a little

[00:50:32] end cap display of pegs with the Batman Returns action figures on them.

[00:50:36] I only bought one because I was already a teenager just coming out of middle school, couldn't

[00:50:43] collect toys anymore, but I bought one and that was the Michelle Pfeiffer Catwoman.

[00:50:47] And I still have that figure to this day because that to me was Batman Returns was her performance,

[00:50:53] her character, all that.

[00:50:56] Yeah.

[00:50:56] Batman Returns had a big role in my adolescent life.

[00:51:00] Movies from before Jurassic Park are their own benchmark.

[00:51:03] And the movies after Jurassic Park are their own benchmark, mostly diarrhea, but they're

[00:51:08] their own benchmark.

[00:51:10] And Batman Returns was one of the last great in-camera optical blockbuster summer movies.

[00:51:18] Yeah.

[00:51:18] I have a soft spot in my heart for it.

[00:51:20] Really do.

[00:51:20] Same.

[00:51:21] As a kid growing up, I just loved all the bat toys.

[00:51:24] So you've just got, I mean, the Batmobile is outstanding in this movie.

[00:51:29] And you also get a bat boat at one point and the Batarang.

[00:51:34] And just, yeah, I just loved all that stuff.

[00:51:37] Yeah, me too.

[00:51:38] For me, nothing compares with the original movie where he comes through the skylight and

[00:51:43] puts that device into Jack Nicholson's face and you don't know exactly what it's going

[00:51:47] to do.

[00:51:48] It's firing things everywhere and then it lifts him up and they just get pullied out of the

[00:51:52] room.

[00:51:52] It's like, where does he get those wonderful toys?

[00:51:55] Only in the trailer.

[00:51:56] Yeah.

[00:51:57] But, uh...

[00:51:58] That was so disappointing.

[00:52:00] Like...

[00:52:01] Yeah.

[00:52:01] I know.

[00:52:02] It should have been in the movie.

[00:52:03] Just like Harrison Ford's reading of the line part-time.

[00:52:07] But never mind.

[00:52:10] We should also talk about the music.

[00:52:13] I was just about to mention that.

[00:52:15] So it's Danny Elfman back again, but he has expanded this to operatic levels.

[00:52:22] Yes.

[00:52:22] And I think Birth of the Penguin and the opening title is probably among his finest achievements.

[00:52:28] I think so.

[00:52:29] Yeah.

[00:52:30] This might be my favourite Danny Elfman score of all time.

[00:52:34] Yeah.

[00:52:35] I mean, yeah.

[00:52:36] Having the Batman theme again return, incredible.

[00:52:39] But then you've got themes for the Penguin and Catwoman's sort of slinky violin music.

[00:52:48] It's amazing.

[00:52:50] It really sort of represents her sort of feline persona.

[00:52:54] Yeah.

[00:52:54] I have the expanded score for this movie, the multi-disc set.

[00:52:58] And I was so thrilled to get it because I never grew up with this soundtrack.

[00:53:02] I always wanted it, but I never got around to it because, you know, pocket money is what you'd have at the time.

[00:53:08] I needed Michelle Pfeiffer's action figure before I needed that, so I didn't buy it.

[00:53:12] But, uh...

[00:53:12] Of course.

[00:53:13] It is my favourite, not only Danny Elfman score, but it's also my favourite rendition of that Batman theme.

[00:53:20] Mm.

[00:53:20] That carried on to the animated series as well.

[00:53:22] I think it's really, really strong.

[00:53:24] And that takes nothing away from his orchestration of the original movie.

[00:53:27] But like Conrad said, Batman Returns dials that brilliance up to 12 with that composition.

[00:53:34] Yeah.

[00:53:34] It's really, really good.

[00:53:35] I especially love, like, the cloud scenes are really great.

[00:53:40] A lot of circus-themed kind of music.

[00:53:44] But it's scored, I think Danny Elfman described it as like a Tom and Jerry cartoon.

[00:53:51] Mm.

[00:53:51] Like, it's very cue-y.

[00:53:52] It just, like, every two seconds the music changes to suit the action.

[00:53:57] And it's amazing.

[00:53:59] It's...

[00:53:59] Yep.

[00:53:59] I don't know.

[00:54:00] I hate the Hans Zimmer stuff for the Nolan movies.

[00:54:03] It's just jarring, percussive, like, crap to me compared to this.

[00:54:08] It fits the movie.

[00:54:10] It does, yeah.

[00:54:11] Yeah.

[00:54:11] But I do feel sorry for the cellists that just have to sit there chugging bloody 16ths for

[00:54:18] their whole lives.

[00:54:19] It must be so dull.

[00:54:22] Yeah.

[00:54:24] Hans Zimmer, he'd just gotten out of his wah phase and went into his Dolan Batman phase.

[00:54:30] And it's just like, ah, wah.

[00:54:32] Yeah.

[00:54:32] So I wanted to ask Melinda about Suzy and the Banshees.

[00:54:36] Oh, yes.

[00:54:37] There's a song by them.

[00:54:38] Yeah.

[00:54:39] Is it?

[00:54:39] I don't even know.

[00:54:40] In the masquerade ball.

[00:54:43] Is that Suzy and the Banshees?

[00:54:45] Yeah.

[00:54:45] Yeah.

[00:54:46] Face to face.

[00:54:47] Totally went right by me.

[00:54:49] Really?

[00:54:49] Yeah.

[00:54:50] Well, I mean, I like Suzy, but I'm not like a big, like, I know people think I'm goth,

[00:54:56] but like, I was more metal.

[00:54:58] So like, yeah, it kind of went right by me.

[00:55:00] But I can see, I feel like everyone involved in this movie, it was like a Tim Burton joint.

[00:55:05] It really is.

[00:55:06] Every person that he liked.

[00:55:08] And so because I think of Suzy and the Banshees as being like one of those like quintessential

[00:55:12] goth bands, I can just see them totally meshing with Tim Burton.

[00:55:16] Yeah.

[00:55:17] Well, obviously they didn't go the full soundtrack song score as they did with Prince on the first

[00:55:21] movie, but they did want to have a tie-in, of course, because it's the era of the single

[00:55:27] tie-in release.

[00:55:29] It's funny you say that because like, I was thinking the same thing, like Bat Dance, which

[00:55:34] I listened to earlier because I love Prince, but so Bat Dance.

[00:55:38] And then I always think this movie just didn't have a song.

[00:55:42] And then the next one is the Seal song, right?

[00:55:44] Is it the next movie?

[00:55:45] Yeah.

[00:55:45] Yeah.

[00:55:45] And that was so huge.

[00:55:46] I feel like the Seal song was bigger than the movie, but maybe not.

[00:55:49] But anyway, I don't know.

[00:55:51] Maybe Suzy and the Banshees was not as big in the States or was that a hit over there?

[00:55:57] Like, I don't know.

[00:55:57] Like, did this have like a big summer song?

[00:56:01] Not that I'm aware of.

[00:56:03] No.

[00:56:03] It's weird.

[00:56:04] It's kind of middle of the road.

[00:56:05] It's not punky enough for Suzy.

[00:56:07] It's kind of synth-y and safe.

[00:56:10] Yeah.

[00:56:10] But it does incorporate Danny Alfman's Catwoman theme on the strings, which is-

[00:56:15] Oh, it does.

[00:56:16] Oh, that's cool.

[00:56:16] Yeah, it does.

[00:56:17] I'll have to check it out.

[00:56:18] It doesn't sound very Suzy, really.

[00:56:20] Maybe that's why I didn't realize it was her.

[00:56:22] Yeah.

[00:56:22] It's kind of-

[00:56:23] Them.

[00:56:23] Sanded off corporate safe, Suzy.

[00:56:26] Which is weird because nothing else about this movie is corporate.

[00:56:29] Yeah, this is definitely Tim Burton's movie.

[00:56:32] Yeah.

[00:56:32] Coming to you live from the Movie Oobly at Theatre, it's the prestigious Moobly Awards.

[00:56:42] All right, Moobly Awards time.

[00:56:43] It's where we nominate our favorite Catwoman flipping and whip-crapping-

[00:56:48] Whip-

[00:56:49] Whip-

[00:56:49] Whip-cracking.

[00:56:54] Whip-cracking parts of the film in a number of bird-friined categories.

[00:56:58] Best quote.

[00:57:00] My favorite quote is when Catwoman says, how could you?

[00:57:04] I'm a woman.

[00:57:08] And then proceeds to kick the shit out of him.

[00:57:10] Yeah.

[00:57:12] I love it.

[00:57:15] I love that he apologizes as well.

[00:57:17] I'm sorry.

[00:57:21] Yeah.

[00:57:22] My favorite line's right at-

[00:57:23] I have a lot of favorite lines in this movie, but my favorite line is right after that,

[00:57:27] where she's like, life's a bitch, now so am I.

[00:57:30] And I'm just like, ah, it's the greatest line ever.

[00:57:36] Mine comes from Selina Kyle rather than Catwoman, and it's when she's facing off with Christopher

[00:57:43] Walken's Max Schreck, and she says, how can you be so mean to someone so meaningless?

[00:57:48] Oh, that one was great.

[00:57:50] Yeah.

[00:57:51] Yeah.

[00:57:52] Best hair or costume?

[00:57:55] Obviously, the best costume is Catwoman.

[00:57:58] Like, I don't know how you can say anything else.

[00:58:00] I guess you could argue the penguin, but ugh.

[00:58:02] That costume is amazing.

[00:58:04] To the point where years ago, I saw a really amazing version of it at Dragon Con that, like,

[00:58:11] a woman who was, like, very fit and whatever.

[00:58:15] She- I mean, it was exact.

[00:58:17] It was insane seeing it in person, too.

[00:58:20] But I mean, I just love the white stitching on it.

[00:58:23] I love everything about it, even though I know it had to be an absolute sweaty nightmare

[00:58:27] to be in for an entire shooting day.

[00:58:30] But oh my god, it's really cool.

[00:58:32] And even the little fingernail things that she sews on the- ugh, amazing.

[00:58:37] Yeah.

[00:58:37] Yeah.

[00:58:37] I love that she has home-assembled her S&M outfit and it's covered in stitches, so she

[00:58:43] looks so much like a Burton-esque Frankenstein's monster or the Sally character from The Nightmare

[00:58:49] Before Christmas.

[00:58:50] And yeah, as the film progresses, she unravels as more men abuse her.

[00:58:55] Correct.

[00:58:56] Her fragmented psyche becomes apparent through her costume.

[00:59:00] The costume is a metaphor for her whole mental state.

[00:59:04] It's, like, at the end, her hair is coming out.

[00:59:06] It's just- it's really like a character in the movie.

[00:59:09] It's amazing.

[00:59:10] Yeah.

[00:59:11] Most 90s moment.

[00:59:13] The prominence of butlers seems to be very 90s.

[00:59:19] So I was thinking of Geoffrey from Fresh Prince of Belia, Cadbury from the Richie Rich movie,

[00:59:25] Niles in The Nanny, even, like, Lurch in the Addams Family movies.

[00:59:30] Um, and yeah, Alfred in Batman, like, just a lot of butlers used to feature in these movies.

[00:59:38] And you just don't really get the butlers anymore.

[00:59:40] Do you think that it was because of the, like, 80s and then into the 90s obsession with

[00:59:45] the ultra-rich?

[00:59:46] Yeah.

[00:59:47] And so they just, like, because there was, like, the whole Richie Rich, like, we were

[00:59:51] obsessed with, you know, that was the whole yuppie craze of the 80s.

[00:59:54] And I think it just sort of, like, fed into the early 90s.

[00:59:58] You have a lot of that, I don't know.

[01:00:00] Yeah, everybody wanted an English butler and an English nanny, and then that went horribly

[01:00:04] wrong.

[01:00:05] Yeah, I mean, until you saw Fran Drescher, and then you wanted someone from Queens.

[01:00:10] Yeah.

[01:00:11] Yeah.

[01:00:14] Yes.

[01:00:15] To me, one of the most 90s things is the idea that a department store could be a profitable

[01:00:20] thing.

[01:00:20] Right.

[01:00:21] You know, department stores now, it's sort of like seeing a mall.

[01:00:25] It's just, like, no one's doing that anymore.

[01:00:28] It's very dated.

[01:00:29] Just the idea that it was, like, he's super rich, so he owns a department store.

[01:00:35] Like, ooh.

[01:00:37] Does he also own a blockbuster?

[01:00:39] Like...

[01:00:41] Like...

[01:00:42] Favorite scene.

[01:00:44] My favorite scene.

[01:00:45] It's the scene where she flips out of the department store and she goes...

[01:00:49] Yeah.

[01:00:49] Meow.

[01:00:50] And then it blows up behind her.

[01:00:52] It's, like, the best scene I've ever seen in my life.

[01:00:54] I was just like, oh my god.

[01:00:55] That's weird.

[01:00:56] It's the most iconic scene.

[01:00:57] Like, it's the one that I remember as a child.

[01:00:59] Like, the fact that she throws a whole bunch of aerosol cans in a microwave, and with the

[01:01:05] gas going, and flips out and explodes.

[01:01:07] It's just...

[01:01:08] It's so good.

[01:01:09] Amazing.

[01:01:10] Yeah.

[01:01:11] The aerosols was cut from the UK edition of the movie.

[01:01:16] You don't want to give anybody ideas, right?

[01:01:18] No.

[01:01:19] Every kid would be putting their gremlin and some paint cans into the microwave if you weren't

[01:01:24] careful.

[01:01:25] Wow.

[01:01:26] Yeah.

[01:01:28] It's the Christmas thing to do, apparently.

[01:01:31] It would be cheap of me to say that my favorite scene is him setting those clowns on the

[01:01:39] fire.

[01:01:41] That is emotionally my favorite scene.

[01:01:46] But if I was being more, I don't know, cinephile about it, I would probably say that it's an

[01:01:55] exchange or the exchange between Selina and Alfred, where she's like, I gotta go.

[01:02:01] Could you just, like, think up a poem or a dirty limerick?

[01:02:04] And he's like, one has just come to mind.

[01:02:06] And then he, like...

[01:02:08] And the timing, the delivery, everything is so great in that scene.

[01:02:12] Yeah.

[01:02:13] Most cliche moment.

[01:02:15] I mean, one cliche I wanted to mention is the sort of accidental villain or unlikely villain

[01:02:21] that always starts out as sort of clumsy, timid, messy hair, wearing glasses.

[01:02:27] It's like a DC thing.

[01:02:29] So, Uma Thurman as Poison Ivy starts out like that.

[01:02:33] Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn.

[01:02:35] Kristen Wiig as Cheetah.

[01:02:37] And then you've got the male characters like Jim Carrey as the Riddler and Jamie Foxx as

[01:02:42] Electro.

[01:02:43] They always have this, like, timid look to them with glasses.

[01:02:46] And as soon as they take off the glasses, they're, like, suddenly sexy and confident.

[01:02:51] Mm-hmm.

[01:02:52] Yeah.

[01:02:52] It's like hot librarian thing.

[01:02:54] Yeah.

[01:02:55] Yeah.

[01:02:55] I was going to counter that with the Beauty Queen is a dumb blonde.

[01:03:00] Oh.

[01:03:00] The Ice Princess.

[01:03:02] The Ice Princess.

[01:03:03] I feel like they were doing that on purpose, don't you think?

[01:03:05] Like, to sort of juxtapose, like, what people think of as, like, the blonde sexpot.

[01:03:12] And then we have Catwoman as also a blonde sexpot, but in a totally different way.

[01:03:16] Kind of in a more of a Buffy the Vampire Slayer way.

[01:03:19] Yeah.

[01:03:19] Yeah.

[01:03:19] I don't know.

[01:03:21] Yeah, I think you're right.

[01:03:23] I love the whole, there's this quote where Penguin says,

[01:03:28] Odd as it may seem, Max, you and I have something in common.

[01:03:31] And it's the, we have a lot in common.

[01:03:33] Like, that whole thing, you hear that all the time in these types of movies.

[01:03:38] Yeah.

[01:03:38] Yeah.

[01:03:38] That's very true.

[01:03:39] I think the cliche that I would pick out of this movie is one that I support.

[01:03:47] Clowns are evil.

[01:03:50] Okay.

[01:03:53] Best special effect.

[01:03:54] So my favourite effect in the scene is definitely a special effect and also stunt work.

[01:04:00] It's the explosion at Max Schreck's masquerade ball.

[01:04:04] And what I love about it is that it happens in a shot that you are not expecting to have

[01:04:10] a special effect and stunt work in it.

[01:04:13] It's just a shot of Bruce and Selina walking off of the dance floor.

[01:04:18] And all of a sudden, everything fucking explodes.

[01:04:21] And about 86 people on wires fly up in the air.

[01:04:25] And it's amazing.

[01:04:27] Incredible.

[01:04:29] Very similar.

[01:04:30] Mine is at the beginning, the first time we see the Christmas tree scene that you kept

[01:04:37] talking about, Conrad, where all the clowns and everybody explode out of whatever, was it

[01:04:43] a present or whatever?

[01:04:44] And they all go flying out.

[01:04:46] It was pretty impressive that very first time that they did it.

[01:04:50] You're just like, wow.

[01:04:51] And I love the acrobatics.

[01:04:52] And you're just not expecting it the very first time you see it.

[01:04:56] Yeah, it's great.

[01:04:57] There's lots of that.

[01:04:59] Oh, yeah.

[01:04:59] Practical, in-camera, enormous, big budget nonsense.

[01:05:03] I mean, that and the burning the devil alive.

[01:05:06] That was pretty great.

[01:05:07] Yeah.

[01:05:11] I guess my favorite effect would be it's split between two things.

[01:05:16] And I'm obsessed with vehicles and models, model work.

[01:05:21] I loved old school model work before it all went CG.

[01:05:24] And so I do love the shot of the bat ski boat in the sewer going up the wall to dodge the

[01:05:31] rockets.

[01:05:32] It's really, really good.

[01:05:33] But I also really, really love the Batmobile having to jettison its sides and turn into

[01:05:39] the Batmissile to get through that alley.

[01:05:41] You know?

[01:05:42] It's hard to decide.

[01:05:44] Yeah.

[01:05:44] The Skotak brothers.

[01:05:46] Oh, really?

[01:05:46] Have been doing...

[01:05:47] Yeah.

[01:05:48] Whenever you see great miniatures in 80s or 90s movies, it's the Skotaks.

[01:05:53] Oh, okay.

[01:05:55] Aliens.

[01:05:57] The worms in Tremors.

[01:06:00] Oh, yeah.

[01:06:01] It's all the Skotaks every time.

[01:06:03] It's good to know.

[01:06:05] Favorite sound effect.

[01:06:07] This is dumb, but like, I love how they incorporated the Wilhelm scream when he tosses one of those

[01:06:13] clowns.

[01:06:14] Did you notice it?

[01:06:15] Yes.

[01:06:15] It just was...

[01:06:16] Like, it was...

[01:06:16] I think it was right before he, like, hit the really big one in the face.

[01:06:20] Yeah.

[01:06:21] It was great.

[01:06:22] Yeah.

[01:06:23] You've got to have that.

[01:06:23] Yeah.

[01:06:24] And it's sort of back when Wilhelm scream wasn't as known as well.

[01:06:28] So, like...

[01:06:29] Right.

[01:06:29] You had to know.

[01:06:30] Well, now it jumps out at you.

[01:06:31] But, yeah.

[01:06:31] Yeah.

[01:06:32] It's hilarious.

[01:06:33] Yeah.

[01:06:34] I would say Catwoman's creaking PVC outfit when she is writhing around on the penguin's bed.

[01:06:42] Oh.

[01:06:43] It is such a delicious sound.

[01:06:46] And I love that they took the time to put it in there.

[01:06:48] Unless it's just studio audio, but I doubt it.

[01:06:51] I think they've added it in.

[01:06:52] It could be.

[01:06:53] Yeah.

[01:06:53] Yeah.

[01:06:55] The scene where she starts having a bath.

[01:06:58] I have a bath now.

[01:06:59] For no reason.

[01:07:01] Starts licking herself.

[01:07:03] It's great.

[01:07:03] There's a lot of licking in this movie.

[01:07:05] It's really not necessary, but...

[01:07:07] Yeah.

[01:07:09] My honourable mention, though, would be the fact that when Bruce is...

[01:07:15] Well, Batman, I should say, is going to track down the penguin and stop his dastardly plan in the climax of the movie.

[01:07:22] He's got, like, his radar scanner and he's tracking the duck.

[01:07:26] And it's got, like, this quack noise for the sonar.

[01:07:29] I noticed that, too.

[01:07:30] Yes.

[01:07:32] And that's where it's like Adam Westy, right?

[01:07:35] Yeah.

[01:07:35] It's just...

[01:07:36] Yeah.

[01:07:36] Yeah.

[01:07:37] Most funniest moment.

[01:07:38] Melinda is not going to like my funniest moment.

[01:07:42] I already know what it's going to be.

[01:07:44] It's right at the beginning of the movie.

[01:07:46] And it is a beautiful, long, white-haired cat being pulled into the penguin's infant playpen.

[01:07:55] I don't know.

[01:07:57] I did cackle with laughter.

[01:07:58] I think it's just because it's the first thing that really happens in the movie that is really twisted.

[01:08:03] Yeah.

[01:08:03] Oh, wow.

[01:08:04] It feels very Adam's family as well.

[01:08:07] It does.

[01:08:08] It really does.

[01:08:09] Thankfully, though, you can tell that the cat...

[01:08:11] Yeah, it didn't bother me at all.

[01:08:12] The transition between the real cat and then the...

[01:08:15] Well, and the sound effect for the cat.

[01:08:17] It's all you hear.

[01:08:18] You don't see anything.

[01:08:19] You just hear it.

[01:08:20] And it's just over the top.

[01:08:22] It's clearly a joke.

[01:08:23] Right.

[01:08:24] Yeah.

[01:08:24] It's ridiculous.

[01:08:25] Yeah.

[01:08:26] Yeah.

[01:08:28] Funniest moment for me is when Batman is rescuing the Ice Princess.

[01:08:33] And she says something about being kidnapped by the man with fish breath.

[01:08:38] And then Catwoman swings in saying, did somebody say fish?

[01:08:42] I haven't been fed all day.

[01:08:43] And then Batman sort of parries her to the ground.

[01:08:47] And then he says back to her, eat floor, high fiber.

[01:08:55] It's like bad dialogue, but really funny.

[01:08:59] Yeah, because right after that, they start kicking each other's asses.

[01:09:02] And she's like, hey, stud, I thought we had something.

[01:09:05] And he goes, we do.

[01:09:07] And then he like punches her in the face.

[01:09:09] That's great.

[01:09:11] Yeah.

[01:09:11] That's all Mooblies.

[01:09:14] Happy holidays.

[01:09:19] This is Kelly Maroney, and you are listening to Movie Ooblyette.

[01:09:25] Ah, yes, it's time for final verdicts.

[01:09:28] Should the Christmas set sequel, Batman Returns, be let out from its dark sewer prison to eat raw fish and be adored by all?

[01:09:36] Or should it be tasered, shot at with penguin rockets and pushed off Gotham's highest building to plummet back down into the darkness of the Ooblyette?

[01:09:46] Never to be seen again.

[01:09:47] All right.

[01:09:48] Batman Returns.

[01:09:49] Is this a forgotten, terrible movie or a great adaptation of a superhero?

[01:10:00] I'm used to many of my favorites being underappreciated and forgotten.

[01:10:04] So I don't care if you guys throw it back in the Ooblyette because I'm going to keep it alive.

[01:10:08] I'm going to ship it until it sinks.

[01:10:10] But no, seriously, I just need to come back to the fundamental reality here, which is this is the Batman movie.

[01:10:19] Where Batman beats up countless amounts of clowns, sets one on fire, and throws another one in the sewer where he blows up with dynamite that Batman strapped to him.

[01:10:34] Ergo, this is not only a film that should be remembered.

[01:10:38] It's the greatest Batman movie of all time.

[01:10:41] I love this movie both unironically and ironically.

[01:10:48] And that is my final word on the matter.

[01:10:52] Whatever happens to Batman after this movie, whatever happens to this movie, you guys can decide it's going to get forgotten.

[01:10:58] I'll never forget it.

[01:10:59] Ever.

[01:11:01] Sounds good.

[01:11:02] I love this movie because, I mean, I already talked about how much I love it, but just for Catwoman alone, she's one of my favorite female characters in cinema.

[01:11:14] I just enjoyed this particular iteration of her a lot.

[01:11:18] I think Michelle Pfeiffer did an amazing job.

[01:11:20] I would love to see more of this backstory being fleshed out.

[01:11:25] Unfortunately, they've kind of just abandoned it.

[01:11:27] But yeah, for that alone, I think this movie is amazing.

[01:11:31] And it is, to me, very funny because it is just so, like, I know everyone says Tim Burton is very dark, but this is like on another level of just, like, it is Temple of Doom dark, but in the Batman universe, which I think is hilarious.

[01:11:47] Yeah.

[01:11:48] Yeah.

[01:11:49] Watching this movie again, I think this is my favorite childhood movie of all time, looking back on it.

[01:11:57] I think it really did affect me when I first watched it.

[01:12:00] And I would agree with Michael.

[01:12:01] I think it is the best Batman movie, period.

[01:12:05] Like, out of all the Batman movies, it's definitely my favorite.

[01:12:08] It's the one I've watched the most of.

[01:12:10] Yeah.

[01:12:11] Yeah, I agree with Melinda as well.

[01:12:12] Best female villain in any Batman movie or even any superhero movie.

[01:12:19] She's just incredible.

[01:12:21] Michelle Pfeiffer, just amazing.

[01:12:23] I'd say best female character.

[01:12:25] Yeah?

[01:12:25] Yeah?

[01:12:26] I mean.

[01:12:26] I would agree.

[01:12:27] I would agree.

[01:12:28] Yeah.

[01:12:28] Lots of levels, lots of sort of complexity.

[01:12:32] And yeah, Danny DeVito is disgusting, but he really commits.

[01:12:37] Like, it's the grunting, I think.

[01:12:40] It's the constant, like...

[01:12:41] And the oil.

[01:12:45] That is just, like, repulsive.

[01:12:48] But it works, and that's the point.

[01:12:51] So, yeah, I highly rate this movie.

[01:12:53] It's also the oil and his butt crack.

[01:12:56] I'm sorry, but it is the most upsetting thing I've ever seen.

[01:12:59] Oh, his prairie ass?

[01:13:01] Yeah, there's like a line down the middle.

[01:13:04] It's just...

[01:13:05] Oh!

[01:13:05] It's so upsetting.

[01:13:08] It's so upsetting.

[01:13:09] I wanted to get a pull quote for the poster.

[01:13:12] Just as Batman returns, there's like a pull quote.

[01:13:14] It's like, you'll never eat smoked salmon nigiri the same way again.

[01:13:18] You know, like...

[01:13:23] What are we talking about?

[01:13:24] This movie's fucking great.

[01:13:30] Oh, yeah, it is.

[01:13:31] In fact, you know what makes it better?

[01:13:33] Is that it is the underdog of the Batman films.

[01:13:35] I agree.

[01:13:35] It's great, and it's an underdog.

[01:13:37] I didn't even know it was the underdog until today.

[01:13:40] Because I just always loved it.

[01:13:41] And I'm like, well, that just makes sense.

[01:13:43] But anyway.

[01:13:45] Conrad, tell us why you hate it.

[01:13:46] Yeah.

[01:13:47] Yeah.

[01:13:50] Go ahead, Conrad.

[01:13:53] Well, I appreciate all of the things that you're saying.

[01:13:57] I definitely think that if this were the Catwoman movie,

[01:14:00] I would be absolutely thrilled with it.

[01:14:03] And I do appreciate that it's, you know,

[01:14:06] one in the eye for corporate America and for Hollywood.

[01:14:10] It's almost as good as Joe Dante's Gremlin sequel.

[01:14:14] Yeah.

[01:14:15] He was saying, oh, you really wanted Gremlin sequel?

[01:14:17] Oh, here you go.

[01:14:18] Yeah, exactly.

[01:14:19] Deal with this.

[01:14:21] It's kinky.

[01:14:23] It's twisted.

[01:14:23] It's disgusting.

[01:14:24] It's dark.

[01:14:26] But fundamentally, it's not really a great action movie.

[01:14:30] I'm bored watching it.

[01:14:31] And I was disappointed as a teenager.

[01:14:34] I wanted more of the Batmobile doing cool stuff

[01:14:38] and Batman flying around on wires doing cool stuff.

[01:14:42] And he's in it for about 20 minutes, I think, total.

[01:14:46] Yeah.

[01:14:47] And I find it quite disappointing as a Batman movie

[01:14:51] and as an action-adventure movie,

[01:14:53] and particularly the fact that it just keeps recycling

[01:14:56] the same speech followed by clown action,

[01:15:00] followed by speech, followed by clown action,

[01:15:03] followed by speech,

[01:15:04] in the same two locations that look very studio-bound and cheap,

[01:15:08] with all the wobbly headstones and the fake snow.

[01:15:11] So I've never liked it.

[01:15:14] I've always found it really quite tedious,

[01:15:17] even though I appreciate all the wonderful things about it.

[01:15:20] And Danny Elfman's score is my favorite of all of his compositions.

[01:15:24] So I'm afraid I would throw it back.

[01:15:27] Conrad, I want you to know that I want you to throw it back.

[01:15:30] I want you to throw it back and you'll be late.

[01:15:32] You know why?

[01:15:33] Because this movie is like Jesus.

[01:15:37] It's going to come back.

[01:15:39] It will resurrect itself.

[01:15:42] It will live again.

[01:15:43] There's nothing you can do.

[01:15:45] You throw it in there.

[01:15:46] Go ahead.

[01:15:47] It'll come back to life.

[01:15:49] That's what happens to clowns and sewers, you know?

[01:15:51] They all float, and you will too.

[01:15:53] They do.

[01:15:55] Indeed, yeah.

[01:15:57] No, it will rise up out of the sewer in the arms of the penguin.

[01:16:01] In the arms.

[01:16:02] Absolutely.

[01:16:02] So to quote Jesus, kill me.

[01:16:06] I dare you.

[01:16:08] I'll come back.

[01:16:09] Like, Batman Returns will come back.

[01:16:12] Go ahead.

[01:16:13] Go ahead, Danny.

[01:16:14] If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[01:16:19] Yeah.

[01:16:20] Yeah.

[01:16:21] I'm the outlier, though.

[01:16:22] I know I am.

[01:16:24] The thing is, it's one of those movies that I appreciate for all the things that you're

[01:16:28] talking about, but I hate watching it.

[01:16:30] But that's the thing.

[01:16:30] Because you're the outlier, you're the most in theme with the movie we've just talked about,

[01:16:34] which means that for once, the outlier should get to make the choice.

[01:16:40] Well, I will say comic book aficionados hate this movie.

[01:16:44] Yeah, they do.

[01:16:44] I mean, they hate it.

[01:16:45] And I get that.

[01:16:46] I get it because it does part from the canon of the comics.

[01:16:50] Yep.

[01:16:51] Like, that's a very valid argument.

[01:16:53] Like, especially if you're like a huge lifelong Batman comics fan and you're going to the film

[01:16:58] to see that put on the screen.

[01:17:00] You're not going to get that.

[01:17:01] You're getting like Tim Burton's idea of what a comic book movie should be.

[01:17:07] So, yeah.

[01:17:08] Agreed.

[01:17:08] You're not alone, comrade.

[01:17:09] No, you're not alone at all.

[01:17:10] I mean, we're the fringe Batman Returns people like weird commune zealots.

[01:17:19] We're fighting for this thing that nobody else cares about.

[01:17:22] You can hear it in our voices.

[01:17:24] So, if you want to put it back in the oubliet, go ahead.

[01:17:27] It's fine.

[01:17:28] It's been there the whole time.

[01:17:30] Well, I'm outnumbered, but let's check in with the patrons and see what they have to say.

[01:17:36] Hello, Hal.

[01:17:37] Merry Christmas, guys.

[01:17:38] Oh, Merry Christmas to you, too.

[01:17:40] Can we have the result of the patrons' vote, please?

[01:17:45] Holy shit.

[01:17:46] They voted to set it free.

[01:17:47] Really?

[01:17:48] Ah.

[01:17:49] Yep.

[01:17:50] Wow.

[01:17:51] I really didn't know which way that was going to go.

[01:17:53] Me neither.

[01:17:54] I mean.

[01:17:55] Yeah.

[01:17:55] It got the most votes out of any vote this year, and 89% of them wanted to set it free.

[01:18:01] Really?

[01:18:03] That surprises me, because this movie does get a lot of hate.

[01:18:05] Yeah.

[01:18:06] It does.

[01:18:07] It does.

[01:18:08] And there were some comments along those lines.

[01:18:12] James says,

[01:18:13] I understand I'm in the minority, and even though I suffer from an intermittent bout of manic love for really bad films,

[01:18:20] but not today.

[01:18:21] Let the penguins back in the zoo to blow up every vestige of this ugly duckling.

[01:18:29] You go, James.

[01:18:33] And Film Aficionado said,

[01:18:35] I know a lot of folks like Batman Returns, but it's never been enjoyable to me.

[01:18:40] The movie's production design is excellent, and I appreciate Tim Burton's clear reverence for German expressionism.

[01:18:46] It's easy, however, to allow the film's stylistic virtues to distract you from the scattershot, silly, mean-spirited story featuring eye-rolling dialogue.

[01:18:58] Oh, God.

[01:18:59] Oh.

[01:19:00] Whoa.

[01:19:01] See, I like the dialogue.

[01:19:02] I think the weakness is the actual plot.

[01:19:05] Mm.

[01:19:06] Yeah, I think it is, too.

[01:19:08] Dr. Doggy says,

[01:19:10] The late great Simon Jeffs believed that the behaviour of penguins reflected the human condition.

[01:19:16] On that basis, better let it waddle off out of the oubliette.

[01:19:20] Like the film, though their journey might take far too long due to their short legs and lack of tiny motorcycles.

[01:19:32] Okay, so I guess on that basis, we are indeed setting it free.

[01:19:38] Yes.

[01:19:38] Happy holidays, Batman Returns.

[01:19:40] Woo-hoo!

[01:19:41] Raps and bitch!

[01:19:42] Yes!

[01:19:44] Well, Michael and Melinda, it's been so wonderful to have you here for this holiday treat.

[01:19:50] Thank you for responding to our bat signal and coming to our rescue.

[01:19:54] Where can our listeners follow you and find out more about what you have coming next?

[01:19:59] Well, you can find us at Retro Blasting.

[01:20:02] That's with an I-N-G at the end, all one word.

[01:20:05] And we are on YouTube as our primary platform, but we're also on Facebook, Twitter,

[01:20:09] Twitter, and Instagram.

[01:20:11] And I've got a big video coming out right now.

[01:20:15] It's not out yet.

[01:20:16] It's still several weeks away, but it is a huge look back at all the behind-the-scenes craziness

[01:20:22] of Rogue One and a deep dive into that movie as well as its lost cut.

[01:20:29] A lot of really interesting stuff going on behind the scenes with that.

[01:20:33] And then I've got some toy videos coming out, Jurassic Park, you know, some other stuff.

[01:20:38] But that's sort of like filler stuff.

[01:20:39] Yeah, the big one's Rogue One.

[01:20:41] And I'm still right in the middle of trying to finish that script and get started recording that.

[01:20:45] And Melinda, where can they find you on the web right now?

[01:20:49] I'm hiding.

[01:20:50] No, I'm working on, actually, Conrad and I are working on a show that we're hoping will come out early next year in 2025,

[01:20:59] if you're listening to this after the fact.

[01:21:01] And yeah, we're really excited about it.

[01:21:03] And so we're in post-production right now.

[01:21:05] So we're working really hard, but you can't hear it yet.

[01:21:09] But I think it's going to be amazing.

[01:21:11] Yeah, I do too.

[01:21:13] It's going to be funny.

[01:21:14] If you need a laugh in 2025, can't imagine why you might.

[01:21:18] But if you do...

[01:21:20] Yeah.

[01:21:22] It's going to be a feast for the eyes and the ears.

[01:21:26] It's...

[01:21:28] Yeah, it's a lot.

[01:21:30] It is.

[01:21:32] Yeah.

[01:21:32] Well, thanks again for being with us.

[01:21:34] Thank you.

[01:21:35] And yes, listeners, thank you for joining us this year.

[01:21:38] But if you want to follow us on our future episodes, you can find us on all platforms as MovieOoblyIt.

[01:21:46] And you can email us at movie.ooblyit at gmail.com.

[01:21:51] Yes.

[01:21:51] And if you want to keep us on the air, head on over to Patreon.

[01:21:54] It's the easiest way to support the show.

[01:21:57] For a dollar, you can get access to extended portions of the show and nominate films for us to cover in future.

[01:22:02] And for $5, you get access to our monthly Minnesodes and get the right to vote on the final verdict.

[01:22:09] And for $10, you can be an executive producer whose name is read out at the end.

[01:22:15] Like Chazilla, Eddie Coulter, Isaac Sutton, Dr. Doggy, Serge, iconographer, Ryan A. Potter and Evan Goodchild.

[01:22:23] Yes.

[01:22:24] Thank you so much for another year, patrons.

[01:22:26] It's been really great.

[01:22:27] Some great films that you've picked for our Minnesodes as well.

[01:22:31] We have merchandise on Redbubble and a YouTube channel.

[01:22:35] And please, if you haven't already, give us a Christmas present by rating and reviewing us on whatever platform you're listening to us on.

[01:22:43] It does help us out quite a lot.

[01:22:45] It does.

[01:22:47] So that's it for 2024.

[01:22:50] Thanks for listening, everyone.

[01:22:51] Have a great holiday season and see you in the new year.

[01:22:55] Yes.

[01:22:56] And thanks to Michael and Melinda for joining us on this episode, very last minute.

[01:23:00] Thank you so much for inviting us.

[01:23:02] We always love coming onto your show and hanging out and talking about movies with you guys.

[01:23:06] Yes.

[01:23:07] And asking for the emergency help on Batman Returns, chef's kiss.

[01:23:12] I mean, what a great way to wake up this morning, right?

[01:23:15] Yeah.

[01:23:16] Yeah.

[01:23:16] It's awesome.

[01:23:20] Okay.

[01:23:21] Goodbye, everyone.

[01:23:22] Merry Christmas.

[01:23:23] Happy holidays.

[01:23:24] Happy holidays.

[01:23:25] Happy holidays.

[01:23:26] We review our films.

[01:23:28] Others tend to forgive.

[01:23:32] Come with us and open up the movie you've been here.

[01:23:38] Merry Christmas, everyone.

[01:23:40] I believe the word you're looking for is...

[01:23:42] Everybody's making me look for this episode.

[01:23:42] ABoom.

[01:23:43] ABoom.

[01:23:43] You're welcome.

[01:23:43] And who's going to be a great holiday season.

[01:23:44] We've got to be great.

[01:23:44] Thank you.